"RECALL" - Page 2

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by Centurian on 13 February 2016 - 16:02

Recall ...... Hmmmm broken things are recalled , liked cars
I wrote that for a reason ...... I train very different than most forum members.... so what do i say here if a dog does not come when called the first time : Your Relationship I know ... oh no can't be most people reading this think .. but that is the case.
there are generally two groups of people on this forum ... die hard sport/competitors and just plain dog companion people . however i found the sport people are so tunnel visioned for points they miss the tree in the forest... everything is a technique , a how to ... mentality.
But really folks ... whatever you ask of a dog ... does it not naturally do it naturally on it's own accord anyway ? ... for example : all dogs sit , lie down . walk ,stand , scent the ground, jump ,etc . OHHHH * don't they also come to you ** , and go out from you ?? really ???? and .... what is the difference to just simply living your life with your dog as a companion and for sport competition ... Actually - nothing .. except for points and rules. But what difference can be made and seen is your relationship with your dog . That is the point .
so i ask ..... why ... just why do YOU have to call your dog as opposed to your dog WANTING to come to you ? Philosophcally speaking. in my training for example , my cue to the dog is not a so called Command , but rather permission to come to me. dogs do things for reasons , why should your dog want to come to you ? .. it is an animal not a robot !! this is what i say you start with : knowing your dog ..... is it independent , more of one to follow owner direction , does it need to play with toys , like to bite articles , does it like to be safe /secure ? the first key is knowing your dog , fulfilling his needs , and he will have the desire to be with you. one reason a dog does not come to you ... is that the environment fulfills his needs , not you !!
so . i go about doing this .... every dinner time , he gets cued or is allowed to come to me. that does not have to be done in my kitchen all the time. or if my dogs like to bite ... same thing... he gets a bite by following my direction . Notice .... i do not REWARD train but rather everything is based upon relationship building. ... if you train for rewards ... you get a dog always looking for a reward and one that does Everything unto itself and it's own volition ... there are two sides to this equation YOU as much as your dog .... the more independent the dog ... the more you need to connect to him , really find that motivation for the dog wanting to come to you ... then progressing to give him permission . so as the posters wrote .. i command my dog ... yes ,,, it's all about the dog .... but what do you mean to the dog ??
Unfortunately , people condition the dog to not look towards them , to be of it's own mind ... not realizing . why does the dog not come to you ... because he can choose not come to you and he also he has more of a reason not to ... my dogs , even the most independent , have all the reason to want to come to me [ i don't mean dependency problem here] ... in my relationship i never let them think they have more fulfilling interests not to do so. i teach with no collar/leash ... but this does not imply i won't discipline.
this is the short spiel ... I teach also other things to my dogs via my relationship .. such as 'nothing matters but the task at hand '.
i can't write a whole seminar here. But in summary ..
*Your relationship with your dog is the cornerstone to everything , every single thing that transpires between you two .So if you are interested in how i interact with my dogs .. then send a message . be patient i don't visit this site daily. Cleaning up the problem of a dog not coming to you BTW starts by not giving your dog the chance again to " not come ".. not until he has more of a reason to want to . like his life depended on wanting to come to you sort to speak , until that ... don't dare venture on.

by Nans gsd on 13 February 2016 - 19:02

Thank you...

by Centurian on 14 February 2016 - 16:02

Nans gsd i have a question for you and mostly others reading this thread:
what is the difference for the dog to come to you 6 inches away from you as opposed the dog coming to you from 25 ,meters /yards away ?? [ I start teaching the dog it is in it's best interest to come into my body space at 2 inches away from me... An 8 week pup i can get to come to me 120 years away very soon . Anybody can .... and should !! the dog learns that it is safe , secure , is nourished , is entertained .... not rewarded ... but rather it learns to decide that in certain contexts in life , THAT is where it's interest lies. If the dog decides to want to be there ... there is your desire for the dog wanting to gravitate to you .
i hope your answer to that question was ' no difference ' .. absolutely no difference. Again .... i know ... people here are going to say that ,this factor or that factor matters . Distractions perhaps , one will say matters - maybe , yet at the same time , no ... Distractions should not over ride the desire for the dog to want to come to you when cued. Communicate that the the act or the notion of being with you serves the both of you better. For example . through my relationship , I learned from my dog , he told me in respects , that he would do anything for a bite on article. He would go through a window for that bite. Another of my dog's it was the act of chasing a ball ... in order to chase he had to gravitate to me in order for the ball to be thrown. So , his need ... was simply met ... by gravitating to me I fulfilled his need to bite . Now you get the idea of relationship and interacting in life ?
Note : I did not say ' command '... Because i condition , i did not say , in language "'train; , I said condition, meaning that I communicate what is in our best interest in life , what brings my gs to our goals . Those things that are defined by a relationship : our interaction , our need for shelter , our need for food , our need for entertainment /play, our need for safety and security. etc.
I have interacted with many people in the gs world that so call , train using commands .. that is their life with their dog , all about commands [ now i don't mean we never cue our dog verbally or non verbally. i mean something very different ] ... But take a look at this through a different lens... Have you ever lived with a pack of dogs? would you agree you and your dog are a pack ? so why then would not pack rules , psychology not apply to you and your dog ? so do they command each other around all the time? no they live in unison , harmony communicating how to survive.
Think .. does one dog give another a command ?? do not they go to and away from each other.... do not they work in unison ? In pack mentality do not they understand what their goals are , what they need to do to achieve their goals ? Aren't they in a pack relationship which underlies EVERYTHING ? .... then why do , [mostly sport ] folk always look for techniques... this way or that way ? IMO , the dog knows and has all the answers before you even ask the question. Contemplate : why do dogs walk together [heel] , run toward each other , away from each other [ come] , etc. yet so many owners have trouble getting a dog to come/ go out ?
The two biggest mistakes in living with your dog : 1. so called training , via rewards. and 2. not understanding the difference of, so called Positive training as opposed to what I call Motivational Interacting.
This is why I laugh at Sch when considered such a big thing. I am not bashing Sch . It is a super sport . But i see constantly when someone is doing an exercise that it is the people that cause the difficulties , not the dog. There is nothing in Sch that is not done by simply living with your dog. If you walk with your dog beside you , that is fuss . If it is away and if you cue your dog to come to you , that is your 'recall'. ... what is the difference between that and the so called formal 'Recall Exercise" . Again nothing. The point i make ... everything is based on the dog's make up and how you choose to teach and live your life with your dog.
So in ending.... if your dog has no reason or internal will , to come towards you ,to gravitate to you mentally , emotionally , physically , to seek you out , at a distance of 2 inches away .... Why would you expect it to at 5 feet , 10 feet ,15 feet , 20 feet ? The desire and motivation should be constant and over riding everything else.
I hope this is helpful to novices and new pet owners.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 February 2016 - 17:02

Hi Centurian, and welcome to PDB. I think I agree with most of what you said in your two posts; although it is difficult to be sure when you are not, it appears, writing in your first language. To answer your question(s) about whether I believe there is any difference in the distances over which I expect a dog to come back to me, then NO, of course not, & I would not argue that "this factor or that factor matters / makes any difference". To me it does not signify whether we call it "training", "conditioning", "commanding" or just "living with";  the "reward" in the training is basically that the dog enjoys and wishes to be with you. Whether you achieve that effect with aids like food treats, or toys, tone of voice, or soft words, or hugs, or just a quick scratch on the dog's head, or 'only' your 'body language', really does not matter. About the ONE thing (almost) all trainers of animals probably can agree on is that "it's not the dog, it's the person" that needs the education !   Some people have more about them, that leads to their being able to bond easily with dogs - you sound as though you do - but for others it does not come as naturally, and they need to be

taught how to aquire that  talent, helped by whatever "rewards" (and training techniques) necessary.

I have probably lived closer to your scene of "Living with a dog pack" than most people reading your posts; and I always had what is often referred to as "a way with dogs", from earlier than that; but even so I acknowledge that with some dog  temperaments it is easier and quicker to get good results if I do not rely on my own personality ALONE but avail myself of some toys or cookies !

Just another tool in the box.


susie

by susie on 14 February 2016 - 17:02

"... dogs do things for reasons , why should your dog want to come to you ? .. it is an animal not a robot !! this is what i say you start with : knowing your dog ..... is it independent , more of one to follow owner direction , does it need to play with toys , like to bite articles , does it like to be safe /secure ? the first key is knowing your dog , fulfilling his needs , and he will have the desire to be with you. one reason a dog does not come to you ... is that the environment fulfills his needs , not you !!"

I do have major problems to follow your thoughts, Centurian.

Relationship - fulfilling its needs = no problem about this part, but what do you do in case something else is "fullfilling the dogs needs" f.e. hunting the deer, chasing the cat, biting the neighbour...?

A lot of German Shepherd dogs are "high drive" dogs, there may be a trigger more interesting than your relationship.

What do you do in case your dog suddenly decides running across the street to visit a female in heat fullfills its needs way better than sticking at your leg at that moment?


"There is nothing in Sch that is not done by simply living with your dog. If you walk with your dog beside you , that is fuss . If it is away and if you cue your dog to come to you , that is your 'recall'. ... what is the difference between that and the so called formal 'Recall Exercise" . Again nothing. The point i make ... everything is based on the dog's make up and how you choose to teach and live your life with your dog. "

The main difference might be that the trained dog may come back, whereas the "cued" dog may decide to go on...

Sorry, maybe your method works perfectly well ( did you train and title in IPO using your "style" ? ), and I am just dumb, but all of my dogs had different temperaments, and for all of my dogs there were different triggers strong enough to forget any "relationship" for at least seconds.
What helped to overcome these seconds was education and obedience.


by Nans gsd on 14 February 2016 - 18:02

In reality I would like to think that my dog would be a 99.9% reliability; I want him to think he needs to come to me for literally everything he does; sort of a check in type boy... Do I reward this behavior, absolutely I do reward with a pat on the head acknowledgement of his presence and even maybe a hug and kiss on top of the head but some type of hands on "feel good" reward for him. YES, he does want that from me and responds very happily when he is rewarded with this for himself, wagging tail, smiling, etc...

NO I do not think 5 inches or 10 feet away from me is any different; however, he might. That is where I need to close the gap. I do understand that and will proceed ahead and set us both up for success. I would like to think of his training as a way of life for him, not just for that moment of a command. Hope you can understand where I am coming from. If not, let me know. Thanks to all for explanations. Nan

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 February 2016 - 07:02

Something else: missing from both Susie's and
Centurian's contributions, the nature of FORMAL
competition. All we've been saying above is actually
just about getting your dog to happily return to you
when you want it to. Tidying up a Formal Recall and
Finish/Present for sporting contests IS a different
matter. I speak from a Competitive Obedience
point of view, rather than a working knowledge of
IPO - but it is 'expected', and if you want top points
you need to go along with this - that the dog, on return-
ing to its handler, sits squarely in front of you, then
does a nice clean turn back into Heel / Fuss. Now
you just do not get that unless you specifically train
for it, I don't care how good a 'dog whisperer' or
naturally gifted handler you are !
Of course, if that is regarded as too OTT, you don't
have to enter competitions ...

by Centurian on 15 February 2016 - 15:02

Thanks for all the dialogue... this is good for people to share ideas ... I want to stress that when i write my aim is to relate to all people of various levels , novice to expert. It is never  my intention to ever belittle.

      Hundmeutter ... yes .. what you have written in your post is generally what i want people to understand. I prefer not to use the word Reward , nor what I do [ nor feel what should be done ] is Reward   Teaching   / Reward  Behaviorally Condition. I choose words very carefully . But if one understands canine behavior and chooses that word , then ok . I have found to the inexperienced owner that thinking in 'rewarding behavior' ideas , leads them to develop wrong concepts that lead to many , many , problems with their dogs. I like the fact that Hundmutter alludes to the fact that the use of food , toys etc. are tools for communication . [Correct not best used as mere rewards]. HUND is very full of understanding and experience. A better useful word when discussing  teaching would be  " Reinforcement ". There can be a difference between reinforcement and reward in an abstract level.

     To those that do know what i am talking about I would even put this out to you : the dog figures out quite often that is is being reinforced or rewarded .  The GS is one of the most highly intelligent , calculating problem solving dog. Believe me when i tell you that  some psychologists whom  i have helped with training their GS have seen this and also have acknowledged this . So , i am not here to argue , but if one chooses to so call REWARD based training then  be careful . unless you are very experienced. I am not concerned with semantics of words , sometimes in the dog world people have similar ideas but use differnet words. Other times people use words , poorly defined , that give a whole different meaning or concept. I am more interested in correct concept.

    I want the end result to be  that when one teaches their dog that  they  comprehend and determine that : 1.  what you are teaching is exactly what the dog is learning and 2. what the dog has learned is what you intended to teach . that is my goal for posting.

     In reply to a dog that likes to chase deer : my first comment : Dogs are context specific learners. For novices , what that means is the dog learns specific lessons in a specific circumstance /situation. For example in communicating that you want your dog to sit : sitting in your kitchen is not the same in the dog's mind while  sitting at the grocery store. After going to a multitude of locations the dog generalizes the sit to different places . However they are poor generalizers when it comes to learning. So as a owner it is our responsibility in our relationship to know this. If you communicate to your dog that chasing cats is not allowed , then you must also teach it to like wise not chase rabbits , then squirrels , then deer and so on. each animal is different teaching in the dogs mind. Again our responsibility to teach the dog what it should not chase. How and what you teach is a different issue. If you have not taught the dog to chase then your part of your relationship is to have the forethought of not allowing the dog into a situation that it is not prepared for or allowing the freedom to engage in chasing. Dogs are animals , not people. not robots. This is no different than having a 4 year old child ,  taugh tnot  to cross the street , and letting that child walk down the street without holding it's hand.

    Concerning the chasing topic I would add that what needs to be taught to the dog is IMPULSE control. Yes , from the genetics of a gs this can be easy or more difficult . In a highly motivated gs, yes the lesson is to teach that dog that  it is not in it's interest to chase deer and that  it better darn well leave the deer  alone. This teaching  is based upon your relationship . Even if the dog's geneitcs is not based on you  the communication and teaching is !!  One  teaches  the dog to leave the deer scent on a laid Sch track alone,Yes ?. Then teach to leave the deer alone on sight and to not  chase if chasing deer  is problematic.

     Some of these high aggression , high in hardness dogs are taught to 'out' from a bite in protection , yes ? That is impulse control in combat. Isn't it. Same for the police dogs that i taught. Why cannot one teach these dogs to leave another animal alone? ... I am not saying it is easy . My attitude : dog ... i will teach you , and you will not even want to look at a deer when we finish, you will learn where better your interest lie .  In the day of Capt. Max V.  Stephanitz , if the Germans saw their GS attack a chicken , they would make it  so that dog would not lookwant to look  at a chicken . Now I am not saying your dog won't chase a deer because it loves you .... but the point i make is that you still have a relationship with your dog and it is from your relationship with your dog that it will learn to chase or not.Even though this may be due to an innate  autonomic response , most dogs have the capacity to have their viewpoint about chasing changed. Case in point , although not the same .. the principle is : dogs can be taught not to chase cars, cats etc . When they lust taking a bite from a fugitive then can be called off the attack/apprehension .  In that sense you  teach that it is in the dogs best interest to attend to you or where it's interests lie. Do a combination of things in teaching.  Attend to the dog's needs , substitute one  need for another if you have to .  Commuicate that it is not safe to chase deer upon seeing it. Change in the dog's mind what   'seeing and chasing a deer ' means.  If you don't do thjis you will never overcome it's innate response. Everything stems from your relationship nonetheless.

     One side point... people here will not like this... but IMO   , now it's an opinion ... if a GS can't control itself then IMO , that is bad , very very bad. I frown at those  genetics . IMO these gs that won't respond to not chasing , are dangerous dogs. Can you imagine a gs that only cared to kill it's shepherds flock ... not a good situation  now, is it ? If you have a dog like that ... then realize that and do your part . Privledges are earned **. Freedom is a privledge earned**. If you can't train your dog to not chase an animal then just don't give it the opportumnity .. that is your part of the relationship !!

      BTW , dogs don't things always because they love you ... they do things with purpose to survive. All people we all have different genetics , motives , needs , emotion  , thoughts ... and so do dogs. Like people they have their own genetic make up and interests. Nonetheless as I wrote , everything that transpires between person to person , dog to  dog and person to dog   is ultimately  founded and based upon relationship. 

   As I wrote , dogs think and are not robots nor human .They make mistakes and can misjudge. They always think and choose. if you want reliablity to it's maximum ... we  owe it to our dogs to have them learn impluse control . trust , confidence in owner etc etc.   In that sense we guage 100% so called reliability . We don't surrender common sense or responsibility . Even the best trained dog can be fallable. No dog , no person is perfect in life we all err .  and be careful for a dog thjat omnly works if somethiong is in it for them .. that is what you will get ... a dog always simply looking out for itself, looking to get something. Not a partner. One more time , reward based notionms brings a dog that works for itself and unto itself. I would prefer a gs to work with me and for our best interest . I have no use for people like that in life too.. We know the kind .. always putting themselves first , trying always to get what they can from someone.Always out for what they can get. 

      


susie

by susie on 15 February 2016 - 17:02

You don´t own German Shepherds, do you?

by Centurian on 15 February 2016 - 21:02

yes , last year i had living 14 in my home, now i am down to 10 gs , in my life i had 30 . some i trained for police capability , some for personal protection , some for high end shows , some for Sch and French ring and some simply for companions. working line and show Line. I also have owned Belgium Malinois.
BTW I competed to a very high level ... But i really don't care ,about my accomplishments , what is important is how i lived with my dogs. because i have seen high competitors that need a lesson on the value of companionship. sport does not have to be any different than owning a companion dog... goodness , i start the pups at 8 weeks old. by 12 weeks already they will do a sit/stay and out of sight sit /stay started. 16 weeks they already learn to to come into my body space and sit straight in front.. I don't say this to brag ,... it is no great feat by any means. why ? because at 7/8 weeks when i feed them i set them up so that they have no other choice but to come in straight in front close. Everything is communication .that is what is exactly taught , that is exactly what is learned. So , i say to them " if you want to eat , then come quickly and straight in front. and i never utter a word. I simply have my kitchen's peninsula eating on my right side , place an object on my left side. so they have all other options taken away but to come in straight in front to eat . you would be amazed how fast a puppy learns to come in front. BTW i don't start the puppy off 30 feet away . i wait initially as the pup walks the kitchen and is close enough , then i tap the metal bowel when it is 1 foot away and as i put the food down i guide the pup in towards me. in addition you will see the pup offer this behavior of coming into to you .
just for the record , this is not a REWARD . this is a communication to the pup , come into me straight and your need is fulfilled . learn you can rely and trust me. coming into me is a way to reach your goals. same for bite work.. two wiggles of a tug and pup not only into my body space but into and right onto me. none of this nonsense agitation . the lesson , that is where you reach your goal . come in for the bite calm , cool , fast , clear headed and don't depend on me to rev you [ overstimulate you ]up. i just wrote this as a link to my past post. Agitation ,,, yes done incorrectly you make a frantic dog, frantic hectic dogs have trouble controlling themselves. Sport is not much than living with your dog.. i start sch /ring right in my kitchen. IMO , again an opinion ... sport and high end competition is not so above it all ...
Last year i went to a Sch club . Most dogs working out Obedience problems. P{resident has been doing Sch 15 years ... a club member i talked to was there 2 years. she turns to me and said one day " oh , the dogs are going to work now" and i said firmly no. she looked at me so puzzled. I said to her no , that is where all these OB problems have come from. she didn't understand what i meant. So I say , it is that idea as to why the dogs have problems. No the dogs don't work .. you will see i work with my dog and he works with me , both handler and owner , both work. So she heels her Sch 1 dog who heels 1 foot in front and starts to wrap around her. She was getting frustrated. So i say let me help : first your dog does that because that is why you taught and what he learned . Now it is a learned self fulfilling behavior. the dog does not understand what else different to do. Next I tell her to be quiet. when you give a verbal cue, and when you have a tug /reward stimulus on top of everything else you are thoroughly confusing the dog. Your so called correction is not a correction because the dog is correct for what you taught. that is why when you correct he does the same thing. and because of that the dog works for the getting the tug /ball , he is working for himself. Now i say each step you take , you talk by your movement to the dog. Get your dog in heel . put you tug away , get a short stick and with your right hand place it in front of you and him in order to block his forging. take three steps. then give a cue to release your dog take two steps away then pull the tug out for play . don't throw it.. you don't want to teach the dog to go away from you . if he likes play play ,. if he likes a bite give a bite . I said your dog forges , simply because he can. So , you are not rewarding the dog. a reward comes immediately after a behavior and with that in mind at the end of an exercise. .... this is different. very different. and the play is outside the confines of the heel .
I think i made my points about rewards and that teaching companion or sport , doesn't matter for correct teaching is teaching as is learning is learning. Good luck all .





 


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