Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 1

I pose this question from a genitic standpoint. If we took a Sch3 working line GSD, would that same dog work well as lets say a dual purpose k9. Lets say we took that same dog and instead of training for soprt we trained for police work. Would that same dog excell. If a person is looking for a gsd for real life work is it best to go to a breeder who is a top trainer an get a pup from their breeding from parents who have scored high in compeition.
Are there breeders breeding for actual working dogs as opossed to a good sport dog? do you think that there is a difference or is a good sport the same as a good working dog? By the way I have seen a lot of high line GSD sch3 that probably were not worth crap if a real life encounter happened on the street. This is why I pose the question, to see what others think.

Robert

Your first question could have several different answers. Mostly depends on the dog. I have a friend who always says some dogs are good "in spite of their training, not because of it." I think that applies here.

I reject today's ideals of breeding dogs to excel at Sch. Sch. was supposed to be a tool to test GSDs. We should not be changing dogs genetically in order to be good at a sport.

I agree that there are many dogs on the podium who would be worthless in a real situation. There are also many dogs on the podium who might have been with different training, and still some who can distinguish just fine between real and sport.

I have a titled female who is great at Sch. However, she enjoys biting flesh equally. This is the whole reason I chose her for my foundation female to breed.

How much does training talent vs genetics influence the outcome of the potential dog? Does competition training render a dog unsuitable to real life work? Is this what you are contemplating?  (What is real life work for a dog?)

And what do you mean by dual purpose dog? The GSD is multipurpose, so not clear about what you are saying.

The method of training and what they are trained for is the main difference.

beetree, dual purpose as in dual purpose K9...police work.

petowner...I think there's more to it than that. Enough breeding for certain traits will change the dog genetically, which I think was part of the OP's question.

Thanks Jenni78 for clearing that up for me!

It is my personal belief that many GSD are being breed for the purpose of excelling at the sport.  A breeder may say and have said, "I breed dogs for the sport of schutzhund".  when i research a breeder one question I ask is what traits were they beed for .  I purchased a GSD from a well known Schutzund trainer/breeder.  I was not setified with the dog.  She was luke warm.  My sister bought a sibling (same father) she was red hot in prey and you could bring out civil with the correct postering on the part of the decoy.  Very confident dog, so confident that she probably would not fire up in a real situation.  Training may also play a part.  But naturally  she does not easily precieve threats in real life. 
I purchased another GSD from a breeder whose purpose was greared more for real life situations as opossed to sport work.  She is very approachable if you are an adult, can be petted as long as we are not on the training field.  But is very proective of her people, car, home.  She is neutral with strangers not agressive, can be petted.  But she is not looking to be petted by strangers, she just kind of looks at them with her ears up.  But if she is given the word or preceves a threat she will naturally fire up.  She learned what "watch " meant after the first time training at 1 1/2 years old. 
However she was breed with a different purpose in mind.

Question: What is real life work?

Answer?
Some one threatens your saftey and they are not wearing protective gear. 
Some one breaks into your home, you are sleeping.
A police dog is sent on a person.  Will the dog bite and hold on or will the dog run around the suspect in circles looking for a bite but not seeing the bite sleeve.
These are examples of real bites versus sport bites

Dogs dont compete, people do. There once was a real need for Schutzhund in the testing of the dogs for the betterment of the breed. That was it's only purpose. Sport is for the excitement and vanity of the human. So much so that the breed actually suffers. The problem is that 99% of the dogs bred today are heavily influenced by sport and or show. I doubt there are any true working lines left. There are possibly small pockets of dogs bred for police service work only but the training of the modern day police dog is largely based upon protection sports of some kind. The training changes to improve results for higher scores in the sport. This affects genetics and those changes influence working dogs such as police and SAR. The desire for higher scores force the training to be more and more specific which reduces the versatility of the breed.

I know this comment will irritate some however my opinion is this:

schh is not an accurate gauge of a dog ability to work in real life. In fact a small percentage of dogs can excel at high level of both sport and real world. Schutzhund has become a stylized obedience ring.

Anyone can train a dog to track a relative fresh track on an organic surface, a few hundred yards and kepping there nose on the ground. does this mean this same dog can mythodically track a lost human, pet, etc... through long distance over a multi surface track in various conditions with back tracks and obstacles a day or two or three old? or jump and runs, etc.....I doubt it.

How about protection? where is there a true fight brought to the dog? Go to one French ring or PSA trial and look at the pressure difference and test of nerves on the dog and the various real life tests the dog must pass. you will see real decoys bringing the fight to the dog and handler.

what is the purpose of teh focus heel beyond style? A dog wanting the ball at your shoulder or waiting for the next piece of food to drop is not watching his surrounding to protect. watch a dog waiting for a handler attack and he is scanning his surrounding for signs of the enemy approaching to make a violent gesture while maintaining position. not stairing into his handlers starry eyes.

the sport tests very little of real life if you ask me. but thats my opinion. I own both real world working dogs and sport. The basis on this is different per task you want them to complete but you must have a strict selection process for either to excel. A small percentage can handle and differentiate between both. but it falls mostly on genetics, with proper building through puppyhood and training to build the high end dog on either side.