I think treat training is cruel. - Page 40

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by Gustav on 07 December 2018 - 21:12

Duke, I agree about seminars, that’s why I preface my comments with “working” knowledge in reference to toolbox. Many people speak on training methods that they really don’t have working knowledge. Brings me to mind about when a kid in his twenties was standing me down about the dogs and training in the 70’s and eighties....lol, but I was the foolish one for arguing with him. But YouTube and selective hearing has created many experts recently.

by duke1965 on 07 December 2018 - 22:12

we arrived at a situation where people who never trained and titled a dog are telling others how its done,

people who have one dog they learned not to pull a leash, telling us ceasar milan is cruel and can repair this screwed up dogs with positive training,

and policedogs must be lovable pets

meanwhile the teenagers need safe spaces and cry rooms, and are offended when someone tells them the truth or sets them straight

what a world we are getting into Wink Smile


by ValK on 07 December 2018 - 22:12

Being forceful in the teaching stage has nothing, zip, to do with creating strong dogs.

Jesse, i don't do this to create strong dog. i do it to see if my selection was right. strong dog can't be made. dog must be born into that quality.
secondly, your mistake are in humanization of the dog. they are intelligent but not yet human and they do build relation on the rank structure, regardless among own kind or with human. the more innate dominance in dog, the more that dog will test opposing party for opportunity to take over lead role.
by training the dog, you must foremost place yourself in the dog's shoes. i understand, you never been bumping into dominant dog but believe me, they left enough of scars on me to remember them well. 
and yes, there can arise situation when you can establish leader role only by mean of fist.



by ValK on 07 December 2018 - 22:12

Duke, that song used to be one of staple in Christmas season radio playlists in here.
not anymore. this year it was removed for reason of "gender politcorrectness".
perhaps same way minded folk are pushing for revision of relation between dogs and humans.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 07 December 2018 - 22:12

Valk-
I don’t know what kind of dogs you have. I know what you like in a dog though, through your comments.

I know you can’t change a dog... that is what I said in the above post. Although some still try to “make” a dog tough.

So, in otherwords, you are testing your dog, by using force, to see if you made the right choice in puppy. Ok, that is a different thing all together. That is a different subject than teaching a dog something.

Duke-
I know you ain’t talking about me in your above post. Because I agree with what you just said.




Rik

by Rik on 08 December 2018 - 02:12

all I can add from reading 40 pages is that some posters know training and some posters know dogs.

Rik

Prager

by Prager on 08 December 2018 - 02:12

JJ before you start another rambling post about what I am saying wrong please actually first read it. if you do not want to read it in its detail then please do not respond to it. You are applying total sophistry of filibustering of a barrage of arguments which no one can answer in its entirety in this format. The next sophistry - fallacy you are using is assigning to me statements and meaning of statement which I have never said and then you argue with by you generated concoction. First, you may start with correcting yourself and talk about "down' and not "sit" that alone tells me that you completely missed my point. Also, I have not equal MT with positive only I have said that there are trainers who advocate positive only and that is what they do when using MT and on and on. It is basically a waste of time to read your posts since you are not arguing with me but you are arguing with a straw man. I am not going to defend straw man arguments and participate in such fallacy.


Prager

by Prager on 08 December 2018 - 02:12

JJ completely fabricates what I am saying he says that I have said: Even if you, as Prager writes, “gently” push down on the hind end...WHY? Why bother doing this? Not to mention, his delicate hip area as a pup when joints are developing.

 Prager Hans: this isa total straw man fabrication > i'll give you $100 if you show me that I have said this. You post here as some Guru but you can not defend your arguments based on replying to my true statements.

   


Prager

by Prager on 08 December 2018 - 02:12

Apple: Prager, A dog understanding that you want them to go down is not the same as a dog learning how to offer a behavior that he has learned for a reward. Stress interferes with initial learning. If you go by your default theory then a dog who learns via an association with stress, he will require stress to keep that behavior reliable. Independent learning via positive reinforcement leads to a better adjusted dog in the long run, if the dog has the drives that can be used for that approach.

 

Prager Hans. It is a total fabrication to say that stress is detrimental to a learning process. The exact opposite is the truth. Since you may not, believe me, and will say that my words are just blah- blah - blah ( at least I think it was you) I will quote a scientific study as you some time ago asked me to do. 

Learning under stress: how does it work?

Joëls M1Pu ZWiegert OOitzl MSKrugers HJ.

Abstract

The effects of stress on learning and memory are not always clear: both facilitating and impairing influences are described in the literature. Here we propose a unifying theory, which states that stress will only facilitate learning and memory processes: (i) when stress is experienced in the context and around the time of the event that needs to be remembered, and (ii) when the hormones and transmitters released in response to stress exert their actions on the same circuits as those activated by the situation, that is, when convergence in time and space takes place. The mechanism of action of stress hormones, particularly corticosteroids, can explain how stress within the context of a learning experience induces focused attention and improves memory of relevant information.

To me, this is a long time known fact. Really this is mother natures way to teach us how to survive. Organism under stress MUST learn faster or it will not survive as well as an organism which does learn faster. thus learning faster and with improved memory when under the stress is a matter of survival.

 -------

Then you say: If you go by your default theory then a dog who learns via an association with stress, he will require stress to keep that behavior reliable. 

 The answer to your point is that it is not so.  In negative reinforcement, the dog learns and subsequently through repetition is conditioned to avoid potential stress by doing what is required to do and subsequently, it will receive a reward which obviously is a positive experience i form of positive reinforcement.  Thus the presence of a stress is absolutely not necessary nor desired for the dog to perform after he learns the command. The negative experience only presents itself if the dog misbehaves and refuses to perform given command. Such is at first ( during learning phase) enforced by negative reinforcement and after conditioning and understanding of the command is established then the dog can be corrected by positive punishment. I assure you that dog trained like that works for the handler and eventually with a handler and is perfectly happy and joyous. 

 the example I can learn to swim so I do not drown. ( stress) . This is a negative reinforcement. But after I learn how to swim I enjoy swimming - same as the dog enjoys to perform the command.  Of course, when I stop swimming I will start drowning (positive punishment)  and because I know such basic fact I will not stop swimming. ( avoidance). This is the same thing.

The people who tell you that dog trained this way ends up unhappy worker, do not know how to train this way correctly. 

 

 






 


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