Choosing a pup/green dog.. - Page 7

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Chaz Reinhold

by Chaz Reinhold on 20 January 2017 - 05:01

Lol. I do all the time, thanks.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 20 January 2017 - 06:01

Let me call it as I see it - there will be those who disagree, but 'that's life'.  The dogs do not have to be anything that unusual.  I may be slipping out of date, here, through lack of contact with the newer generation of imports, but to my mind it is likely that most of the stuff being talked about higher drive GSDs coming out of Czech or old E.German lines etc is so much sales BS. Apart from the fact there are - and always have been - some dogs with greater enthusiasm for bitework than others, therefore with a range of drives to tap into (I wish we had a common definition of the levels of those, it would make these discussions tons easier), I doubt they are any 'superior' or harder to handle version of the 'complete' GSD that is now over a century established.  To my mind, its almost all in the training and handling.

The advantage of training in Hundsport, whether it is IPO, or PD Stakes, or Mondio, or whatever, is that it IS a sport, a game; and it is conducted within fairly fixed parameters, with regulations and a common format and is based in 'play' for the dogs.  Many regular helpers/decoys are extremely skilled, and the training is as much down to them as to the actual handlers. OTOH, PPD training frequently seems to transcend those boundaries.  (I have, for example, long taken issue with some of the exercises and techniques employed by PSA in the US).  Fine, if that's your 'bag'; but it too often comes across as akin to the sort of non-sporting, non-organised 'training' that people do in backyards with Pit Terriers and Bull Breeds, that (much to the detriment of those breeds) has resulted in dogs which are more serious, less predictable, and almost inevitably more dangerous.

If someone wants to go that route, I'd argue that they have to be prepared to carefully monitor what they have 'woken up', 24/7;  you do have to deal with the fact that any dog, encouraged to be 'civil'(aggressive) "for real", no matter how good its genetic heritage, is always likely to be more difficult to manage - for instance, with shouty kids around - at the domestic level.  I think it is pretty dim not to realise this but to place all your expectations on a dog's innate temperament and abilities to cope.  The dog is going to be harder, more self-reliant, less accomodating to human direction (especially if the human direction available is inexperienced or weak in any way). If you want it to live in a family situation, you need the practiced knowledge and the energy to be able to 'police' that dog's interactions with other people, to an even greater extent than the care and caution we should all show with ANY dog. Not because those interactions will inevitably go sour, but because they have greater potential to do so.

This is the main reason UK Police regs. insist that operational PDs live outside the immediate family environment, and that only the Handler feeds and exercises them. For safety's sake. It is too late once it has gone pear-shaped & someone gets badly injured or maimed for life. The fact that Police Officers' children remain safe 99% of the time is due to such caution, and experience and diligence on the part of the Dog Handlers; and also I suspect because our Police Dog Sections are less susceptible to go chasing after ever 'harder' dogs for their purposes. I don't think it is any accident that several of our top Police Handlers originally learnt their craft in the Army or RAF, where the dogs are centrally kennelled & not taken to the Handler's home.

As far as having a PP dog in the UK  is concerned, you also have to weigh up this much:  what is the preferred outcome, getting your revenge on the guy who mugs you for your wallet by encouraging your dog to bite him and causing him ABH, or maybe losing both your freedom and your dog's life because you did that and it was sussed that you had actively allowed that to happen ?


Koots

by Koots on 20 January 2017 - 13:01

If you do not have the experience to select a green dog yourself then find someone who can test a dog/dogs for you and take them to the seller. That is on top of being very descriptive about the dog you want when dealing with the seller/broker and the tester.

Cannot help you with finding someone in UK though...

by babbles24 on 20 January 2017 - 13:01

Hundmutter so a police dog in not trusted to be among the handler's family but it is trusted to walk among the public? make sense!
Oh, and if the life of mine or my loved ones is in danger by a mugger, the dog will be the least of his concerns..
I guess sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

Koots where are you based?


by Bavarian Wagon on 20 January 2017 - 13:01

I wouldn't take much of what Hundmutter says seriously...it's just repeating of false information she reads online or in some dated book. Most of her information about training in bite sport and "for real" is from videos she watches online with little understanding of what is actually happening and why things are happening. We've had discussions before where it's clear there is little to no understanding of why dogs are doing things the way they are in various scenarios.

Clearly someone that took your mention of "protection dog" too far. Also clear to see why the state of the GSD is what it is in England as at the first sign of anyone mentioning they want a dog to possibly protect, there is a full on onslaught of how useless that is (from someone that's never even been around a decently trained dog probably). Notice the "buzz" words...and read that first paragraph. "To my mind, it's almost all the training and handling" from someone who's never trained or handled.

Too bad she's in England, I'd love to show how how much of a game my IPO trained dogs think it is.

by babbles24 on 20 January 2017 - 14:01

BW i know, but i cant be bothered to debate these things, sometimes its easier that way..
She has her opinion, and i got mine..

Hundmutter, all i have to say is that in none of your posts have you actually provided an answer to my questions, all you seem to do is trying to divert me to what the people you know breed, by demonising the rest.. Its the kind of sales talk that makes me run a mile.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 20 January 2017 - 15:01

Hey guys, I'm not trying to sell anything, for anybody. Really.

(Have I mentioned any English kennels by name ???)

I have also been careful not to 'demonise' anybody. Even those with whom I do not share a viewpoint about available drives.  Anyone can see that by reading what I actually posted.

 

Bav - the points on which you & I have disagreed have rarely, if ever, been about what is happening in a video (Babbles, you could always check on the truth of  that by looking up my User Posts record). Our disagreements  - yours & mine, BW, notwithstanding what is posted by any others on any thred - have concerned: your arrogant, know-it-all way of addressing everybody; your constant generalised application of just about every fault or accusation mentioned to ALL breeders, except your own contacts; my perception of the American insistence that the USA is bigger and better in every sphere, and is always behind every invention in dog competition.  Prove me wrong.

 

Babbles, apparently the myth-makers have you, hook line & sinker.  Poor dog, if you ever find one that fulfils your expectations. It will have an uncertain future. I don't know how I have failed to give you an answer to your questions - there are answers contained in what I have said to you, but it seems you have no ears to hear anything that doesn't fit with the dog ownership 'map' in your own head. As for answering questions, or anyway points raised, you have proved yourself an evasive expert throughout your thred.  Starting with avoiding comment on spending actual time at dog clubs to properly find out what may be available.

You either want a 'Protection Dog' which you imagine you will have taught to bite;

or you don't.  There aren't any half measures.  A dog is either taught bite-inhibition around humans, or it is taught that in certain circumstances it is required to bite.  It is what happens after that, which counts.

And to answer your last question:  those running Police Dog Sections apparently have the wisdom to realise, as you clearly do not, that there is all the difference in the world between a dog, awake, working, on lead, being spoken to or petted by a stranger member of the public ... and that same dog being shocked out of a sleep by a small child falling over it, or otherwise landing on it, or screeching in its ear, or any of the other noisy accidents which can occur in the home, which can test anybody's nerves, let alone an animal's.

 

 


by Bavarian Wagon on 20 January 2017 - 16:01

Man you're so horrible at any kind of discussion...I remember PROVING YOU WRONG when you claimed UNIVERSAL SIEGER was invented by the Americans. I PROVED TO YOU that it was a German/SV thing. And yet you want to claim I said everything is invented by Americans?!?! Get back into a book from 1970...it will tell you everything you need to know about the breed in 2017. It's also really comedic that you make any kind of claim about the USA towards me as I'm constantly talking about how the USA is lacking in it's breeding programs and how much better they should be.

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about when you discuss biting dogs. My dogs will bite humans...yet they don't "just do it" for no reason. Your idea of bite inhibition is so...KENNEL CLUB. Stick to your obedience ring, stop inserting yourself into conversations that involve a level of training you can't even comprehend.

This is someone looking for a PET that is genetically predisposed to some level of protection, deny it all you want, that means going with a WL, and a WL from an established kennel is the best way to go. I wouldn't stake my life on an untrained dog...but if I had to, I'd go WL from Holland, Czech Republic, or Germany way before any of those black and red things that the English prance around Crufts every year. Sorry, your conformation ring and obedience titles don't prove anything about the dog's nerves as you'd like to believe and try to convince the rest of the world mean something.

Want to give the guy some advice? Name off some of those amazing breeders you have in your country that you have FIRST HAND experience with and believe are worth purchasing a dog from. Lets see them. Lets see what they're producing. I have no issues with a person purchasing locally if it's available. If it is...help them out. Your country is smaller than the state I live in, you should easily be able to recommend someone near by that will have the type of dog this person is looking for if they're available. I can list off all the legitimate breeders in my state without a problem.


by babbles24 on 20 January 2017 - 16:01

Hundmutter, the truth is that i don't find your opinions correct, there is no point to be dragged into a debate as it wouldn't be fruitful, you saw that i ignored your post yesterday, but you keep coming back preaching whatever comes to your head.

I am sorry darling, but you are not the person i need advice from, you can either accept it like a big girl or keep throwing your toys out of your pram. 


by beetree on 20 January 2017 - 17:01

So, Babbles...what does your inbox look like? Do you have what you are looking for somewhere in those PMs and have you adjusted any expectations since you have started this thread? Maybe you have done some fine tuning and will care to share with all of us who have been following along?

I am thinking you should be at that point, now?





 


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