Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 2

Koots: OK OP includes my statement, so I'll explain a few things: Nowhere do I say that sport trained dogs cannot be turned into LE dogs. That is done all the time. I have done it for decades. My point is that there is a huge baggage which dogs trained that way carry with them for the rest of their lives.  The baggage is what I call an undesirable association. This association which I am talking about is an association with equipment like sleeve or suite or other object reminding the LE K9 of a toy. While sport dog can be trained to be civil, when such dog is then under sufficient stress such dog will revert to what he learned originally ( I call it default) which, in this case, is a sleeve or suit and other equipment. I can demonstrate that with great number of SPORTISM  trained dog. And that is the best case scenario. There are exceptions to this and those exceptions are dogs who are what I call type 1 dogs which are dogs which genetically targets man and bite man gentically without training and never ever in protection situation have cared for a sleeve. But that is a different story because such dogs are very rare and are out of scope off what I am talking about.

 The worst-case scenario is the one which often happens during first real encounter with a bad guy  (BG) on the street . Such BG does not have such sleeve or suit and the dog who is trained to target the fabric and not the man will get confused and will quit. I know of large numbers of Police K9 cases like that. If the dog does not fail then it is often not because of the training but due to genetics and dog will persist not because of the training but DESPITE of the training.

I hear just about all K9 cops saying that you do not know what the dog is going to do in a first real encounter with BG. To me, such a statement is a horrible example of flawed training which may and does cause lives. This is akin ingenier saying w do not know if the bridge is going to hold until the first semi goes over it. would you drive over such bridge right after it opened? Not me.

 The reason for this is that most trainers for LE are coming from the sport fields or were trained by trainers coming from sport fields, so they use the sports approach the same way as the person with a hammer see nails everywhere he looks and tries to solve all problems with his hammer. 

IMO the best way is to train LE/PP dogs without any baggage, which in this case means NEVER  to teach the dog protection training by starting with the targeting of an equipment.  To start to train the future PP/LE dog to target equipment and then teach him not to target it  but to target a man instead is illogical, way to go. Don't you agree that the logical way to train future  PP/LE dog is to teach him to target a man from get-go?  

 

BTW I have no idea why there is the balck square on the bottom of my post. 

 

Thank you for sharing the pictures Koots.  Here is me and the first police dog I worked.  Tug and sleeve (may be an old barrell.  notice the Irishman trying to keep him off the elbow) during the schutzhund days,  and later having fun with a girl from Calgary in the suit while on duty.  

 

Koots, i never trained dogs for LE, leave alone retrain, thus have no experience and knowledge on how hard or possible at all to do this.
nevertheless i believe the role and ability in apprehension by LE dog, shouldn't differ from how such task should be performed by patrol dog at border.
good, strong bite always been desirable but emphasis always was on developing in dog from puppy stage, experience and skill to fight opponent, who counter the dog in active, harsh way. objective was not only to teach dog to attack but also to survive the fight.
we never used sleeves, in fact we didn't have them at all, as any other fancy stuff, like hidden protection. dogs worked on full body of heavy dressed decoy.

OK everybody disagrees but mainly without explanation. ( except partially ValK) To say that sport dog can be trained to be LE/Pp dog is not an argument with what I am sayig. Maybe this will help. This is now famous video on John Boyd shooting in Albuquerque. The man dies on the video so if you do not want to see it do not look. What you see on the video is a dog being sent into a stressful situation which has overridden his training to target a man and dog reverted to default which he learned during his former foundational sport or sportism training and started to play with the blue backpack on the ground instead to attack the man. THIS IS A DIRECT RESULT OF FOUNDATION OF SPORT TRAINING which initially created default by teaching the dog to target equipment or fabric toys. The dog when he was put into to him  stressfull situation, then reverted to such sport training even though he was - I am sure- certified as an efficient police dog. The type failure of the dog on the viedeo is not uncommon and IMO caused the man's life. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwytoxMuk4U&t=47s

I don't know anything, but could that dog not be the result of poor choice, poor training, poor dog for LE dog to start with?

there is also a video out there of a LE dog loosed on a running suspect and the dog is running down the road playing with the criminal.

I'm pretty sure serious/experienced LE trainers can spot the fake dogs and weed them out.

if a dog doesen't do it's job, it's somebody's fault at the end of the day.

as always curious,
Rik

OK everybody disagrees but mainly without explanation. ( except partially ValK)

Prager i just can't see any reason to go through sport type training in protection, if dog are destined to be used in real life work. there big difference between two of that.

could that dog not be the result of poor choice, poor training, poor dog for LE dog to start with?

Rick, it is. and type of training, you put your dog through should work like litmus paper to see dog's potential. if dog can't comply, weed him out and move to next. don't waste time in attempt to improve. in critical circumstances dog will fail, regardless how much time and effort you spend to improve his performance.

Been following... Hmmm...don‘t know a lot either....

But, I think I do agree with Prager for how he is saying WHAT he is saying.

Prager says: „My point is that there is a huge baggage which dogs trained that way carry with them for the rest of their lives. The baggage is what I call an undesirable association. This association which I am talking about is an association with equipment like sleeve or suite or other object reminding the LE K9 of a toy. While sport dog can be trained to be civil, when such dog is then under sufficient stress such dog will revert to what he learned originally“.

I also agree that in IPO, for example, ALL aspects can be trained in prey, and many times are. I also agree that a dog will revert to his genetic make-up during stress, and also will revert to what he FIRST learned to do the first time he was trained. Not saying that some very qualified dogs can‘t be retrained or trained to do two things. But generally on the whole, it can open a can of worms if you have to retrain and extinguish some originally trained, in muscle memory incapsled things.

And, lets not forget, they are „only animals“. Although I love all my dogs dearly, no dog is 100% proofed all the time. Maybe 99%, but never 100%.

So my question is how do you train from the start without a sleave or bite suit?

Valk, you mention that you did not have these things in the east block...what you you use to train a civil dog?
And Prager, how does one test civility? The limitations in testing are kind of obvious.

 

 

jessejones, that is incorrect, when you have a dog that is SUITABLE FOR LE BY GENETICS, it will not be a problem if his first encounter is a person without equipment, because the dog was never looking for, or triggered by equipment to begin with

 

All prager is talking about refers more to the actual suitability (natural drives) of the dog, than if he was trained in sport or not

Selection for desired/correct traits is the most important aspect of finding the correct dog for K9 work. If a dog with PROPER DRIVES is given a sport foundation, such dog SHOULD be able to transition into LE K9 work.

Nowhere do I say that sport trained dogs cannot be turned into LE dogs. That is done all the time. I have done it for decades. My point is that there is a huge baggage which dogs trained that way carry with them for the rest of their lives.  The baggage is what I call an undesirable association. This association which I am talking about is an association with equipment like sleeve or suite or other object reminding the LE K9 of a toy. While sport dog can be trained to be civil, when such dog is then under sufficient stress such dog will revert to what he learned originally ( I call it default) which, in this case, is a sleeve or suit and other equipment.

The statement in red is another one which I disagree with - IMO, you cannot train a dog to be civil if it does not have the genetic ability/drive to be civil, but that has been discussed in other threads.

The blue text above is what I will be debating, in the opposition of such statement.   IF THE PROPER DOG IS SELECTED,  a dog with BALANCED drives will have enough civil/defence drive to overcome initial 'sport' foundation training, and to target the man.    It was my duty (self-imposed) as a decoy to develop the dog's bite and fight, and to problem solve any issues the dog was having with man-work.     I used the dog's pack drive (protection of handler), fight drive, civil drive, territorial aggression (protect police car), etc. to get the dog to target me vs. the equipment, thereby avoiding any 'undesirable association'.     Since no decoy wishes to be bitten for real, when training we used sleeves (traditional and hidden), suits and muzzle.   We also used things to threaten the dog, including sticks (real ones we picked up during training session), kicks, punches, jugs of water, etc. to simulate the resistance the dog may encounter when working.     I also taught the dog that the real fun is the fight with the man, and that the man is a real threat that can hurt the dog.   This sounds almost like a contradiction, in that the fight with the man is fun and dangerous.   But anyone who has experienced the 'adrenalin kick' of a dangerous activity knows what that means.   I have heard that once the K9 dog gets his/her first 'real' bite, the mixture of the hormonal release from the 'prey' and perhaps a fight with said 'prey',  brings that dog up a notch somewhat like a person who experiences an adrenaline rush of a dangerous activity (if not being too anthropomorphic).   

In summary, the most critical aspect of taking a 'sport' trained dog into LE K9 work is proper selection of dog which has the requisite traits.     To me, this cannot be stressed enough.   With the correct dog, the transition from sport field to street is 'do-able' with the correct training.    Proper selection of dog + proper/good training = capable K9.

Sure, genetics in a dog are the first and most important marker for working in LE. No argumente there.

But still...genetics have a lot of variation. From being mildly civil or REALLY civil and handler aggressive. And above all, still keeping a clear head.

How does one test this properly and systematically? And at what age ideally?

Does one just tie them up and „tease“ with a bare arm as in the video of Prager and P. Don Mega on page 1 „line breeding with Tom Vant Leefdahlhof“? And hope the line holds and that ones eye is good in judging distance? What would that dog do if not on a ‚safe‘ leash (by safe I mean in the dogs mind...that he knows he is kept from biting for real)?

Hidden sleeve? Surely a dog knows when you have a hidden sleeve. I wouldn’t think that fools dogs...any sport dog could be trained to go for a hidden sleeve too. IMO. Muzzle training...same thing, dog knows he ‚can’t‘ bite for real. 

This topic comes up so often, yet I still fail to understand exactly what is being looked for in a green dog and how it is tested, including the clear head part. Obviously you can‘t allow a real bite....

PS: not arguing that it can't be done...I know it can. Just want to know how exactly it is tested and what is looked for in a dog, according to everyone’s experience.