Defense - Page 19

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by Centurian on 03 May 2016 - 19:05

I thinking about inexperienced people:
... Defense.... Nobody in this conversation has defined " defense" , no one has defined for the newcomer " civil" , and no one has described the bite , the types of aggression applicable to a dog's specific choice in a certain behavior in a context. That is to say .. a dog biting a person , is that the same as defense ? and is , the act of biting someone ,  defense as a the thread was 'headed' . IMOp the topic 'defense' ,is not synonomus with Civil. And CIVIL , is not synonomus with 'DEFENSE". In that light , the posts here can be confusing to very very very inexperienced people .
         Personally , I indeed understand what each and every poster has stated and how they come to their opinions. But I stepped back .. and from a new comer or novice's point of view.. With consideration of 'defense' and 'civil' the basis for what was posted in some posts, is clouded and there seems to have arisen from this cloud , discrepancies in fundamental concepts [ stemming from different perception /definitions ] , friendly disagreements and differences in each's shared opinion /experience ..
     IMOp... the posts have merit . So ... defense .. exactly what is that ? What does defense have to do with civil work ? explain that to newcomers. Civility , what does that mean and how does that related to defense or the lack of defense. Because reading these post , one could think that a dog that does not defend may not ever exhibit a civil behavior civil . and a dog that doesn't act civil will not defend.
Again , I comprehend well each posters intent and meaning . But how about some more light thrown on the topic starting by defining exactly , 'Defense' and 'Civil Work'. Then hopefully , novices will see the truth , in just about all the posts. Because ,right now I am thinking : how is it that many people, well schooled/ experienced , have so many diametrically different opinions regarding dog behavior ? BTW , great posts by everybody here.. fantastic thread and conversation !! :-)


by Gee on 03 May 2016 - 20:05

@ Centurion.
In basic terms:
Defense - when a dog feels genuinely threatened, there response might be to respond with aggression to the aggressor. (Think about a mother protecting her pups, she may well be prepared to inflict AND SUSTAIN serious injury - life or death situation in her eyes )

Prey - think about a dog chasing a rabbit, the dog does not anticipate dying for it's efforts.

(Dogs continualy change drives in a blink of an eye, think about a car changing gear to handle different speeds, in the dog this change occurs depending on the stimulation / trigger in front of it).   


Civil aggression is simply when a dog engages the man without ANY additional stimulation from visually obvious equipment including the association of past training sessions. (in the dogs eye - typically enjoyable games of tug)


Most importantly, whether a dog bites your flesh whilst in prey or any other drive, go straight to hospital, as it matters not a jot which drive he or she was in, it will require the same amount of stitches.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Gee


Prager

by Prager on 03 May 2016 - 22:05

Defense drive is employed as response to negative challenge. Dog perceives threat which trips fight or flight response.

Prey drive is employed to provide food. There the dog does not perceive a threat. It is used in protection training  to 'hunt' people but it is not protection per se.

Prey and defense drive  relationship. Prey will intermingle with defense and vice versa and / or will channel one to another and vice versa.

Civil is a dog which will attack a person who does not induces  undesirable associations of equipment, location, specific decoy and other peope around, time of the day and so on ad infinitum....dog is civil while utilizing prey or defense drive.

 


Prager

by Prager on 03 May 2016 - 22:05

 Below are Hansisms :) = terms created by me - Hans posted here since they may be necessary to understand my posts.

Porch training is a training where you oportunistically utilize every day opportunities to train dog. They are used in cotrast to structured artificial set ups in a training club or school.

Undesirable associations are all association which dog needs to have but are not part of street bite.

Desirable association desirable association trained is mostly the command to attack. ( there are others which do not involve a command.)

Supportive association enhances dog's performance, but  it is not necessary  for the dog  to perform.  Many situations listed under undesirable association are also supportive associations. (the difference is that they are not necessary for performance of the  dog they just support it. )

Type 1 dog is a dog in defense drive who will bite independently and without training the act of biting. It is activly agressive dog which will bite. 

Type 2 dog is dog which in defense drive will not bite with confidence , without training to do so.

Default is a permanent mindset which the dog acquires while in prey or defense or other drive, during first or few first encounters with specific situation. this response is ten stored in the lower level of brain.


by beetree on 03 May 2016 - 23:05

That is all well and good while visiting Planet Hans.

When on planet Earth, a default is defined even from the Middle Ages as a condition borne from a lack or a deficiency of an activity or involvement. One defaults on a loan or loses a game by default, via a no show.

By most Earth standards and even while not referencing computers, only genetics therefore can set a default regards to a dog's reaction in response to a drive. An imprint of certain first behaviors would more accurately describe Planet Han's definition and use of, "default".

If we all insist on our own planets and languages we will never communicate well, together.

IMHO


by vk4gsd on 04 May 2016 - 01:05

default - I suppose imprinting is not exotic enough.


by Centurian on 04 May 2016 - 01:05

Gee and Prager... thank you for your definitions for novices.

My take and thoughts :

Prey and Defense are internal physiological states that bring about specific overt behaviors by the dog in a given specific context . Many of the behaviors have genetic pre-dispostions.
In a Defense state there is the exhibiting or manifestation of behaviors through which a dog preserves itself, it's life or it's valued resources. Food , people , territories , mates etc.
In a Prey state there is the exhibiting of those behaviors that enable the dog to eat.
That is to say .. many behaviors can and will occur when a dog is in either state :
Prey :is exhibited by behaviors - watching/ staring , studying, stalking , crawling towards , pouncing , ambushing , chasing , scenting ,shaking and object/animal , killing etc etc.
Defense : growling ,barking, staring , guarding , fighting, running away , [ flight , fright , fight autonomic nervous response ] , etc
Emotional states are in continuous fluctuation , yes , even a microsecond a dog can go from one emotional state to another and in that the change of behavior reflecting that emotional state follows.
Civil [ not the same in meaning as when we talk about people . The opposite is meant in the dog world ]. A person is civil when mannered and self controlled , in a dog civil is equated with biting a person , himself , for real in life !
So , we can see everything is based on genetics , and the intention and emotional state of the dog .
To explain further for novices, genetics can never ever be changed. We cannot change what a dog or a person is by make up. Our character in such things for example confidence and predictable outcomes can be enhanced by learning and /environment. So this is what many of the posters before discussed.
So the question for us is or what we are to observe is : how , when , where and why does the dog bite a person !! or not bite. Does the bite come from pure genetics, from teaching/ experience or a combination of the two . And from where does the motivation of the bite , within the dog , arise in any one specific context/scenario . You have to learn to recognize a true , controlled , self assured dog , rightly perceiving and responding to ... NOT OVERREACTING TO to a perceived threat . The reaction best be OFFENSIVE in nature , not defensive. That is to say it should be a pro- action , not a OVER REACTIVE action. You don't need a civil over reactive / sharp dog. Not all civil dogs are sharp or reactive ** but be able to recognize that are under the description of a good civil dog, there are dogs that are truly SHARP., a temperament flaw / genetics
Defense: that is the topic here.. so novices , learn to recognize true , healthy , normal defense and understand exactly what , defense and prey mean. A good dog may protect because initially he goes on the offensive[ feeling offensive , not defensive] to control the man and situation . In doing so , he is understanding and perceiving a true threat bringing about the encounter whether the man is with equipment or not, ultimately defensively fighting and sustaining the encounter until.

Prager**.... I have this thing, like you do , about teaching... I teach what i want right from the start with my pup !! What i will add to you commentary .. At 8, 10 12 weeks old , I teach the dog to bite everywhere on the body- legs , arm , get the dog up on my back , put the dog on my chest lying down . Later in foundation training : the area of the body where the pups bite is never an issue . Never an issue because this is taught from day 1. As a pup i teach the same about environment, at age 8 bite going up stairs, through a pool of water , on a chair, jumping on /climbing a fence I teach bite anywhere , anytime !!

by beetree on 04 May 2016 - 02:05

@vk4... Or wordy enough. Like the 500 excess words will be for the benefit of novices?

If Ibrahim understands my posts and direct points in a conversation, then I am most assured that I have been a good communicator. 


Mithuna

by Mithuna on 04 May 2016 - 02:05

Centurian

I tried to follow your post and I suspect your intentions are good; but a better use of English grammar and lexicon would render it more your sharing more meaningful.

Prager

by Prager on 04 May 2016 - 04:05

@ beetree and vk4gsd. Obviously you do not understand the terms . Imprinting is completely something different then what I call "default".

 

Imprinting : Imprinting, psychological definition : A remarkable phenomenon that occurs in animals, and theoretically in humans, in the first hours of life. The newborn creature bonds to the type of animals it meets at birth and begins to pattern its behavior after them. In humans, this is often called bonding, and it usually refers to the relationship between the newborn and its parents.

 or another one:

noun, Animal Behavior, Psychology.

1.

rapid learning that occurs during a brief receptive period, typically soon after birth or hatching, and establishes a long-lasting behavioral response to a specific individual or object, as attachment to parent,offspring, or site.

 here is a video for the ones who  do not like to read a  long text:

http://study.com/academy/lesson/imprinting-in-psychology-definition-lesson-quiz.html

 

Default Hanse's definition.:  is a permanent mindset which the dog acquires while in prey or defense or other drive, during first or few first encounters with specific situation. This response is then stored in the lower level of the  brain.

 

Imprinting has to do with parents recognition and it happens in first few moment f the life.  Imprinting assures that animal stays near the parent for safety. 

 Default is happening during all dogs life and has nothing to do with recognition of who is parent and everything to do wh\ithg the way dog reacts to   outside  stimuli.  

As duke says : "Apples and pears."






 


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