Sportism - Page 31

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by Gee on 26 May 2016 - 22:05

Susie - not trying to put any one down.
You have strong opinions, and I am sure a video camera.

Is GSD Fan trying to sell an anything by sharing her training vids, because by your definition she is?

(Actually I know she aint)

Some of us do just want to share, I only have one litter per year, I turn down 90% of the training requests re other peoples dogs - have done so on this very forum..

This topic is about - focusing on the man over equipment, there ARE many ways to achieve that, the art is to do it in such a way - the dog is NEVER A LIABILITY, by all means show us how you do it.

Regards
Gee


susie

by susie on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

Reread your post, you were trying to "put me down..."

Gee, no dog ( I hate it, but can´t change it right now ), and never ever a video camera, sorry. I own a smartphone for one year now, too late to take videos.

I guess at least 90% of any "working dog" videos available on the net are promotion videos, 5% are "official" videos ( events), and 5% "just for fun training videos". I guess VK is good for at least 2% of them...( thank you, I like them ).

"This topic is about - focusing on the man, there are many ways to achieve that, by all means show us how you do it."
I am not able to show it, so I tried to explain it, guess I failed...

Gigante

by Gigante on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

Permanent like I left the temp agency for a permanent Job I retired after two years. ;) ..... But wait you cant do that.

Permanent default is not always eternal. Retraining the muscle memory could/would reset the Permanent default. Great word choice by Hans 31 pages of discussion, but that words definition was more esoteric.

Gee your in timeout, susie, no never a fail when expressing what has worked for you. 

 


by Gee on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

Susie - if you are saying you prefer VK4 toilet vids over any Alpine vids - we are definitely on different pages.

Explaining and showing - sorry but two different planets.

R
Gee

Gigante

by Gigante on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

How did I miss the toilet video where is that?

susie

by susie on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

Not going to start a "pissing" contest with you , you really should think about your education.
And not going to comment on the vids once again - everything was said already.

by Gee on 26 May 2016 - 23:05

It's not a pissing contest Susie, unless you are talking about VK4's defense dog training vid in a public toilet, in which case - yes it probably ended like that. (Poor old cur, no wonder he is scared shitless, two guys loitering in a public loo with a video camera lol)

Back on topic - Explaining and showing are two different planets.

Susie, talk is cheap, you keep arguing the point of this thread, instead just show us how it is done - I have.

It's so easy by all accounts, just get the dog to engage the man, without him dancing the pseudo protection tango, whilst NOT wearing a bulky sleeve or suit?

Then happily walk that same dog in the park.

R
Gee


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 02:05

gsdfan:But you are assuming K9 Rex (the Albuquerque dog) was given a "sportism" foundation. In fact he was an MWD (Military Working Dog) before being given to APD. Which means (I can explain but don't want to get too wordy) he most likely had a foundation closer to yours than mine. From what I understand they have more of an old school program (defense).

hans: There is no way dog who would go through proper non sportism civil training and maintenance would choose to play with objects rather then to engage the man. the dog trained my way hs 0 interest in TARGETTING equipment.  Also I do not care who trained the dog. I'll give up this discussion with you now . Because after 30 pages here you still do not understand what is sportism and what is default yet you argue with me about it. Also it seems that others still think that civil equal defense. or that civil is only possible in defense. To discuss anything here is like trying to  nail jello to the barn door even though I will admit that you were the most respectful and polite of people who disagree with me and I appreciate that and I think that at different venue we could communicate better. . . If you would understand what I am trying to say then you would not say things like I am  old school program since I train in defense which I have emphatically denied before yet  you kep repeating it.  That is OK but I am not going to keep explaining over and over and being accused that I am repeating myself ad nauseam while people are staying ignorant of my point yet argue with me nevertheless.
As far as other cases I can not talk about them since I have no permission to do so. This case was on Youtube thus I had not reason not to post it. In any case one man dead is due to poor  training is enough for me.


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 03:05

gigante:
Should average Joe and Fido care about permanent default probably not, sport people care, probably not, only really pertinent to people who's training of a dog has life and death or very serious consequences for failure.

Hans : Thank you for your good post on page 29. One thing I do not agree there completely though. Personal protection done by average Joe still needs to have correct defaults and sport dog needs to have default to target equipment so that IPO is safe sport.

Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 03:05

Susie: "Should average Joe and Fido care about permanent default probably not, sport people care, probably not, only really pertinent to people who's training of a dog has life and death or very serious consequences for failure." I guess the last part of your post speaks for GSDfan ... Come on, folks, let´s be honest, where does police get the vast majority of dogs from? Most of them are out of IPO homes, titled or not, some out of KNPV, only a very low percentage is raised and trained "for" later policework ( and even in this case we don´t know how they were trained - sleeve, hidden sleeve, suit only ? ). "Permanent default"? In this case we would hear about problems on a regular basis. We saw one vid - maybe there are 10 more, but how many dogs are out there? Thousands of thousands... It´s like always - it´s about the dog and it´s about proper training - in case a dog "fails" it´s either temperament wise not suitable for the job, or the trainer made mistakes...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 Hans: yes you are right most LE dogs come from sport background and we can retrain them so that they are usable. all I am saying is that there is a better way to train LE dog then it is done these days from get go or from a sport dog.  

 Also I am sure you missed it but I am talking about another hansism :). It is called parallel dog training.  I explain. if you have  sport dog and you want him to retrain him to be LE or PP dog you have in principal 2 options . 

1/ sportism - linear approach which majority seems to love where  the trainer channels prey into defense by making dog to protect the sleeve which was slipped by decoy and now it is laying between the decoy and the dog. Dog keeps hearing the command to Attack while  the decoy is "trying" to steal the sleeve. Dog then is conditioned to  up on hearing attack command to target the man who is after is possession - the sleeve . The problem with that is that all action here is over the sleeve. SLEEVE IS DEFAULT AND CONTINUES TO BE DEFAULT EVEN AFTER THE RETRAINING IS COMPLETED. Thus if the dog on the street in real life sees something resembling sleeve or toy then he tends to  stop focusing on the perp and tends to go  for the object instead. Exactly as we have seen on the video from Albuquerque. 

2/ parallel.  Non sportism non linear approach.  Same   dog can be trained sport as any sport dog is trained  and LE/PP work in non sportism way. You merely start fresh in different venue , different decoy,  and even different command then in sport and no equipment =civil way WHERE THE DOG TARGETS THE MAN AS A DEFAULT . BTW this is done in DEFENSE AND IN PREY(!!!)    Dog can learn this very quickly and such dog then builds new  civil default. That is why  default is not imprinting as  detractors pointed out elsewhere. Imprinting only happens right after birth or at young age. Where default can be established at any time in the life of the dog where he encouteres specific scenario for the first time.   

 






 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top