Letter from Dr. Heinrich of the WUSV - Page 11

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by Gustav on 25 August 2016 - 15:08

Btw, do any of you think that the " objective" rating of pronounced given to most SL dogs in protection is REALLY objective??? So now I have to question the objectivity of the validating objective that makes the title such a justifying commodity.....just sayin!🤔

by Bavarian Wagon on 25 August 2016 - 17:08

To me it’s more of a minimum standard, and yes, for years the minimum has been lowered and washed out. The way I’m looking at it is from a “newbie” point of view…a title tells you something. Unless you’re “in the know” and have the ability to watch a dog, read a dog, or see through the bullshit of a breeder to understand that there is ability there…a title is all you have to go on. For every person you’ve mentioned (although a few of them haven’t produced a working dog in a decade), there are dozens who claim to be producing something they aren’t and are using the “titles don’t prove a working dog” excuse. The truth is, there are WAY more people that choose not to title and use that language than there are those that aren’t titling and are producing decent working dogs.

I also know most “real working dog” people won’t admit it…but there are plenty of K9s out there who are IPO washouts and couldn’t title in IPO. Mostly due to control issues because when asked to compose themselves the dogs can’t bring the drive back without help, or some other issue. So as “easy” as IPO1 seems to be, and as low of a bar that people claim has been set, there are plenty of dogs that can’t do what the trial asks and yet can perform “real work” for some department in the middle of no where.

I personally also only really look at the national level or higher dogs in IPO. Club level is more of a hobby and most of those dogs don’t have the genetic ability to be real working dogs. Also why I don’t really bring in the SL discussion and corruption involved in titling many of those dogs…it happens, but it’s not really saying anything about the title, it says something about the human culture around the title. A title is just like a K9 certification…if the dog is never tested, you don’t know anything for sure. Plenty of breeders place K9s in police departments where the dog is just a glorified pet of one of the officers of a 3 person police department monitoring a rural community of 200 people and call it amazing. A title, at a club level, in Germany, without video, is almost the same thing. Once those titles are achieved at a regional level or higher, you have some idea that the title is legitimate and depending on the score the dog does have a certain level of working ability.

by Gustav on 25 August 2016 - 17:08

I agree with most of your post, and you are right some IPO washouts become LE dogs, and God knows the LE academies have washed out many IPO dogs that are nothing but sleeve suckers with no real courage or environmental nerve.
Like I said there is validity on both sides, that's why I say it's about knowledge of breeder and genetics of the dog, if all other things are equal including training.

susie

by susie on 25 August 2016 - 17:08

There is lack of "objectivity" in the ratings of both show- and working lines.

Once again: "About "titles"... I tried to explain my point of view several times - for a breeder a title is the result of TRAINING, and during training he will learn about the advantages and disadvantages of his/her breeding stock. Afterwards he should think about his breeding program, not instead of."

Gustav, someone who trains knows his stock, someone who only plays ball with his dogs, will never know.
Someone, who joins a club, or any training group at all, is able to compare.

Titles are just titles, in the best case earned honestly, sometimes a "gift", in very reare cases baught.
But titles are a beginning. I think both of us agree that a dog not able to achieve a 70/70/80 on a local trial, not able to achieve a breed survey, should never be bred...

People always say "it´s too easy", but year after year dogs do fail, and at least over here these dogs can´t be bred. In every country where there are no rules prior to breeding, these dogs will be bred - they never failed, because they never had to proof anything.

I am glad we still have to title our dogs, at least the worst specimen are weeded out.

Personally I´d like to see more strenght of the judges, I`d like to see them judge all dogs, no matter the owner, no matter the dog, the same.

Future is against me and my thoughts though, SV is thinking loudly about "alternative" rules and titles/breed surveys, kind of "pedigrees for pet owners", like they are already established in the Rottweiler, Dobermann, Terrier, Boxer breed ( guess, I forgot some of the former working dog breeds ), and this will result in the "real split", way worse than workingline / showline.


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 27 August 2016 - 15:08

They still can be bred in Germany, just won't get any papers. Not like people in Germany are any better than they are in the US. Plenty of "Hinterhof Zuechter" over there as well.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 28 August 2016 - 05:08

Bloody CKEditor! Bloody defective eyesight! (GEEZ I hope the specialist can fix my right eye on Thursday 1st!)
I edit my post in my own software, then copy&paste it into the CKEditor - which preserves the Bold/Italic/Underline choices, but does NOT preserve my chosen fonts & colours and sizes, so I have to go through and reformat each of those after pasting.
Right. I had the first 3 of my prepared responses pasted in and almost completely formatted, when suddenly the pdb switched me to a different page. And my work had vanished by the time I got back to this page. As it was already 5am I decided to go to bed....

 

[Bavarian Wagon] 15.8.2016 - 21:08
"Why if the US leaves the SV would they not breed German Shepherds?"
B
ecause ALREADY most of them are not producing German Shepherd Dogs that fit the blueprint of   http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf   - they prefer Prick-Eared Bassets, NAmerican Ski-Slope Dogs. Teeth-on-Feet, Titanic Tail-Tuckers, and uncounted Just-Plain-Craps - but the AKC allows them to register their pooches as GSDs because once-upon-a-time their litters' ancestors WERE worthy GSDs, such as Sgr.1937 Pfeffer von Bern. It is what has been done in the decades since that has concentrated the alleles that produce the deviations I listed above, plus deviations elsewhere such as the Banana-Backs, the English AlsatiOns, the German Crouchers, the Hinge-Backs.


And in a later post you rave about Orkan vd.M. If he was so good, why is your Yukon his only offspring in the pdb?

"
SV is not the world wide registry of German Shepherds."
Of course not. Its REGISTRATIONS are limited to litters from SV-registered parents and matings that comply with the SV regulations for "white" or "red" pedigrees. What percentage of USA-born litters do YOU think comply with those?


"
The only reason the United States needs any affiliation with the SV is to participate in the WUSV."
The "
United States" - a country - DOESN'T need and doesn't HAVE any such affiliation.
With a few exceptions, the GSDCAmerica seeks membership purely for prestige and to oppose the USCA
(and now it also opposes the WDA that many thought was a section of the GSDCAmerica).
The USCA needs it so it can debate & vote and make use of privileges that WUSV members have available, and can receive information such as the letter that I other GSD Advisory Councillors received on Thursday from Lothar Quoll.


"
Other world champions need FCI registration, which is done through the AKC."
WHAT "
world champions"? There is no such title. So far as conformation is concerned. there are national Champions and there are International Champions of Beauty. And pooches whose owners want an ICB title need satisfactory qualifications such as HGH or IPO or SchH before they can even enter for CACIBs. Please EDUCATE yourself a bit, starting this time at  
http://www.fci.be/en/FCI-International-Championship-41.html   and keeping in mind that French is the main language in Belgium, home of the FCI, and so the abbreviations for international titles start with C.I., (standing for the French words Champion International and listed in the noun-then-adjective order used by French grammar).
And there is no such thing as "
FCI registration" for dogs - but there can be for kennel names, and for titles. So many overseas breeders had used my kennel-name before I applied for it in 1968 that I didn't bother with FCI registration.

"Do you have any idea (snip) about anything that happens in the United States that has to do with German Shepherds?"
Very
little there has to do with GSDs.

"
Americans have been breeding German Shepherds without any regard for what the SV has to say for decades now..."
You can say that LAST bit again, kid! The rot was setting in back in the 1950s, although the only photo I have of Hessian's Baldur looked like a GSD - it ISN'T the immature & short-fore-legged pic seen in the pdb.


 

[Baerenfangs Erbe] 16.8.2016 - 03:08
"You don't even need to be a member of the SV or USCA to breed within the AKC. AKC is FCI. So you can take two untitled dogs, breed them, take the progeny to Germany, put titles and Koerung on the dog and start breeding within the SV.
So yah... the dog has to be FCI, that's it and AKC is FCI."

Like HELL the AKC is! None of Britain, Canada, the USA are members of the FCI community - sheesh, being members means having to submit to the majority decisions of a whole pack of ignorant Moderator Edit**************************************** etc instead of being able to arrogantly ever-so-independently copy Frank Sinatra:  
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5fj9z_frank-sinatra-my-way-live-at-the-ro_music

It is SO easy to find out who ARE and who are NOT members of the FCI!   http://www.fci.be/en/members/
But you prefer to not bother checking whether your opinions are supported by facts - just like a certain politician in this half of 2016.

BTW - neither a
title
(such as BSZS Sgr. or Int.Ch.), nor a KKl. is required to register a Germany-born litter with the SV. All that's REQUIRED is parents with #1 registration acceptable to the SV, #2 a conformation grading of Gut or higher (although even that may be dispensed with unless the owner wants the litter to later be eligible for Körung), #3 'a'-stamps for hips & elbows, and #4 a QUALIFICATION such as HGH or IPO or SchH.
However, those pups will get only the 'white' pedigree and will be ineligible for a grading of V or higher.

And how the hell can a DOG be "
FCI"?
The FCI is a confederation of national all-breeds clubs aka registries - well, those of them that can actually work together and accept democratic decisions! The FCI doesn't even register dogs - that is the role of each nation's one officially recognised kennel club.

And you continued [
Bavarian Wagon]'s "ignore SV requirements" status with

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2132655-asia-von-den-sturmfalken
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2289704-bruna-von-den-sturmfalken

born 6 months apart and with neither parent having any character & trainability qualification - or ANY qualification - despite that he was 10 years old and she was 4 years old.

But you & [
Bav] are already convinced that you know more about GSDs than I do. Still, I MIGHT manage to impart some information to less resistant folk.

 


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 28 August 2016 - 05:08

[Swarnendu] asked "But would you support a similar ATTITUDE from another nation for an American breed of dogs?"

[Bavarian Wagon] 16.8.2016 - 13:08
"What does this even mean? I really don't get what you're trying to get at. I'm explaining to you why the SV doesn't matter in regards to breeding German Shepherds OUTSIDE of Germany. America's registry is the AKC, AKC is a member of the FCI"
NO it is NOT!!!!

I suspect that [
Swarnendu] is asking whether you would be happy for Italians to change the American Staffordshire Terrier, Chinese to change the American Cocker Spaniel, British to change the Boston Terrier, Indians to change the doubly misnamed Australian Shepherd?

What HE realises but YOU don't is that a house built to different measurements is not the same house that was on the blueprint, that a car that is built on a different chassis with a different engine is not the Ferrari that was on the blueprint, a gown cut-&-stitched in a different way is not what Coco Chanel designed, and a pooch that is built to a blueprint different than specified in FCI#166 is definitely NOT a Deutsche Schäferhund aka German Shepherd Dog. But as the AKC requires
no testing, no proofs beyond signatures that both parents are the ones in the AKC's register for GSDs, all YOU "need to register our dogs as German Shepherds as such" is start with 2 cowardly crappy but-registered-with-the-AKC-as-"GSD"s pooches. Never mind that they have DM, ED, epilepsy, haemophilia A, HD - you CAN produce the litter (using in-vitro fertlisation then "renting" another bitch's uterus, if necessary) and have it AKC-registered as "worthy GSDs". Of the kcs I have any experience of, only the ANKC is worth admiring - and what IT requires was the result of the Australian clubs for GSDs and for Rottweilers negotiating with them. I am cursing that "my" GSDAC has been beaten to the negotiating table by NZ's Labrador clubs, and so Labs born from now on will have parents that are xray-scored or they won't be NZKC-registered.

"your statement about leaving the SV and not breeding GSD is incorrect."
WRONG - as soon as you realise that what DOESN'T fit within the limits and doesn't avoid the DQs in FCI is NOT A GSD, it is a "Something Else", you'll realise that [
Swarnendu]'s query was accurate. The "Something  Else" might be BETTER than a GSD for some particular task, but it won't be a GSD.
Or perhaps you consider that a Border Collie is a GSD because it can do an excellent job of herding sheep? Or a Bloodhound is a GSD because it can do a superb job of tracking scents? Or a Golden Retriever is a GSD because it can quite easily be trained to obey & guide a blind human?


"SV doesn't control the breeding and registering of GSD in the United States."
More's the pity! Just LOOK at the exaggerations AKC-registered as "GSD"s! And the BYBer & puppy-miller crap AKC-registered as "GSD"s! I am NOT happy with what the SV has been promoting this millennium. But I am even less happy about what the GSDCAmerica has been promoting!



[Gustav] 16.8.2016 - 16:08
● "@Swarnedu; Other than some Western Europe countries in the FCI, how many countries have breeding rules that are closer to AKC than SV. Like Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, and mostly everyone else....so the statement that most other FCI countries are like SV in breeding requirements is not accurate."
You are wrong about Australia - and have been for many years. See  

ankc.org.au/media/1205/6-ankc-ltd-reg6_registration_oct14v4.pdf   - especially sections 8.8, 8.9, and 8.10., although there are other sections such as age that also apply to GSDs,
"My" NZKC has now opened the gates to tightening its registration regulations, but August's Dog World was the first anyone other than NZKC and Labrador Club members knew about it.
Based on a Yank teaching in Mexico who used to be in my discussion group, I got the impression that in Mexico GSDs are also supposed to pass something like a BS.Classification before having litters registered.
I think the Scandinavian nations are also way ahead of The KC
(UK), the Canadian KC, the AKC.



[Bavarian Wagon] 16.8.2016 - 19:08
"GSDCA, USCA, SV, have absolutely nothing to do with any of it."
Geez you're determined to get things wrong! Why don't you start thinking about causes and effects? About chains of event-items?
"
GSDCA" - in the crazy AKC system, the GSDCAmerica CONTROLS what the AKC prints as its GSD "Standard" for Yank breeders, Yank judges, Yank newbies.
"
USCA" is one of about 4 NAmerican organisations (depending on whether the WDA survives) attempting to keep the elements of the "SportDog" alive - and those elements go back to when - long before the GSD breed was founded - GSDs had to protect sheep against wolves, and act as War Dogs.
1884     At Lechnernich, near Berlin, the German Army establishes the first organised Military School for training war dogs. In 1885 it writes the first training manual for MWDs.
1899     The Belgian police put the first Police Dogs into service.

1902     The GSD Club of Switzerland (SC) is founded by Otto Raum. It is the first club to introduce character testing.
1903     The first SV Working Trial is conducted. The SV had previously initiated the "Service Dog" and encouraged departments to deploy dogs as protection & support of the officers. Dogs were then donated, on a trial basis, to the Police and the Military. The title Working Trial Sieger was scheduled for the first time in 1906.

"SV" is the body that is responsible for passing the Standard of the GSD to the VDH (German Kennel Club), the body that the FCI recognises as the only one having the RIGHT to establish Standards for breeds created or developed in Germany.

It does NO credit to The KC (UK), the AKC, the CKC that they arrogantly refuse to accept that there can be only ONE blueprint per breed.
Yes, they were established before the FCI was, and yes, they have been spared the World War destruction on THEIR homelands that shattered Belgium and shut down the FCI for several years. The AKC etc had the opportunity to set up a superior international organisation themselves during that interval - but didn't bother. They would NEVER cope with the system that NZ's Maori tribes operated by except during actual battles -
CONSENSUS. When an ariki (chief) needed his iwi (tribe) to make a plan, negotiated changes had to be made and re-made and re-re-made until NOT ONE PERSON was opposed to the current proposal.


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 28 August 2016 - 06:08

 

[kitkat3478] 20.8.2016 - 23:08
Geez I wish you'd switched the Editor on and inserted the URL links for that article - what has been stored in the pdb (until an Admin removed it) is almost useless because in many places it NEEDS the graphics that were in the original article.
 ● "Sometimes I wonder if the only reason why the Germans went down that route (quite literally!) might be that they failed to get full grip on German Shepherd hip dysplasia?
Because, the downfall has one (questionable) 'benefit' - the legs already have the angle that fits flat into the dog wheelchair:
"
#
1: It is NOT "German Shepherd hip dysplasia" - it is present in many dinosaur skeletons. As HD in dogs was first discovered by a Yank vet (G.B. Schnelle, 1935), are you prepared to call it "American hip dysplasia"? It was first researched in Sweden in 1958, using the dogs of the Swedish Army (which, naturally, were GSDs), and the Swedish KC set up the first xraying requirement - and ONLY for GSDs - as of 1.1.1959.
As an unfortunate side-effect of that history plus of several GSD clubs warning the PUBLIC that they should buy their pooches from only those breeders who use pooches with Pass certificates, Joe Ignoramus tends to associate HD with the very breeds that have done MOST to try to reduce its frequency & severity!
Anyone breeding needs to realise that xraying can NEVER eliminate HD - it is merely a means of reducing its likelihood until the actual alleles are DNA-identified.
#
2: I suppose some kind of wheelchair could be created for pooches with hip dysplasia, but because the pain in the joints comes with any MOVEMENT I consider that it would be cruel to do so. The "trolleys" available for dogs whose rear end has stopped working is for dogs with either DM (degenerative myelitis, where the spine stops passing signals between the hind-quarter & the brain, and so no pain  is felt even when the top of the foot gets abraded off) and MD (muscular dystrophy, where the muscles waste away - I'm not sure whether any pain is felt).

The author of that article has NOT understood the realities of HD inheritance & the effects of overfeeding and either under-exercising or over-exercising
(particularly during puppyhood), and has greatly misunderstood the "frog's behind" phrase - it doesn't refer to HD, it refers to cow-hocks, and THEY are largely the effect of short croups made effectively shorter by also being steep, and so weak muscles simply can NOT control them. But yes, an excessively long shin and an excessively long instep (the hock below the hock-joint) definitely encourage cow-hocks.

I don't know where that author gets
"
Topline: The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short. The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness."
but that is
NOT the wording in FCI#166. And NO OTHER document is the valid Standard of the GSD. As a simple example, the word "
level" does NOT appear in THE Standard except relating to a faulty bite. The correct word is "straight". And few doggy people understand that the "straight back" referred to is a mere 5 bones above the ribs, not the 7 above the belly.

Despite having the 1st lumbar bone under the /Thoracic\ bracket as if it were the 14th of the 13 thoracic bones (the last 5 of the actual 13 bones being the BACK), the FIFTH diagram in  https://greatdanegnosis.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/the-long-and-the-short-of-it/   is the first CLEAR example I found this afternoon.

For those willing to join   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/The_GSD_Source/info   the 5th graphic in   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/The_GSD_Source/photos/albums/161016253   is the best-labelled, although it is based on the 50-years-ago Alsatian version of the GSD. shoeing teh BACK basically above the floating ribs.

I suggest that anyone wanting to understand the anatomy required for quadruped - especially canine - movement gets hold of McDowell Lyon's "The Dog in Action" and is prepared to read it at least 5 times to puzzle out each aspect until it MAKES SENSE to you!



[kitkat3478] 21.8.2016 - 17:08
 ● "I also find it ridicules to say the americans are not conforming to SV rules... The germans in many kennels are bigger offenders to the standard"
I hope that before you next attempt to quote a massive article that has graphics, you learn how to LINK us to those articles using the clumsy & erratic CKEditor.
You may or may not be an orthopaedic surgeon, but you punctuate like a 7 year old and didn't PROOFREAD your work - as shown by the 4 errors in your bit I've just quoted.

Whether the Germans are bigger offenders than the Americans is not the issue - to think so is like playing a childish game of "Mine is bigger than yours!" vs "Oh yeah? Well, mine COST more than yours!" vs "But mine is PRETTIER than yours!" etc etc. Most adults are aware that politicians aim to head organisations and then further their own ambitions & finances.

The important issues are:
#
1: Whether what EITHER group - or people anywhere - are producing contains enough of what DOES fit the agility, behaviour, character, determination. endurance, fertility, gait, health, instincts, longevity, shape & size stipulations stated or implicit in this section of FCI#166:

Important dimensional ratios
The height at the withers amounts to 60 cm to 65 cm for male dogs and 55 cm to 60 cm for female dogs. The trunk length exceeds the dimension at the height at the withers by about 10 – 17%.

Character
The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

#2: Whether the HANDLING in any kind of ring adequately IDENTIFIES all of the stated or implied requirements.
#
3: Whether judges & surveyors actually STICK TO identifying and accurately reporting those requirements when making their assessments & critiques. I have thousands of critiques in my computer, and it is obvious to me that at shows in my nation the judges and surveyors do NOT. Apart from differences of opinion re withers & chest depth & croups & soundness going, NOT ONE GSD ch.show judge used here
5 UK:   L & T Hannan, Lakin, Summerhill, Vessey
2 Aust: Ballantine, Urie
2 Ger:  Bösl (SV), Goldlust (SV)
1 Belg: Cathie (WUSV)
1 Finn: Kankkonen (SV)
1 NZ:   Bradley (SV)
reported any heights during 2015.
#
4: Whether national REGISTRIES are REQUIRING proofs that the PARENTS of litters actually fit within each breed's International Standard, ,or just stupidly assuming that if the parents are registered they & their prpgeny will actually look & behave like their breed. "My" NZKC has been refusing for quite some time to register GSDs that are listed as an "alien" colour - but they don't check whether they have been lied to. I've already in this thread linked readers to the ANKC's regulations - but size is not among them.


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 28 August 2016 - 07:08

[Baerenfangs Erbe] on 22 August 2016 - 12:08

"Well... considering how hard it is to actually find a good club in the US that's within a reasonable distance it doesn't surprise that a lot of dogs are not titled."
Despite the common misuse of English, you aren't after a show club that offers points towards
TITLES such as US.Ch., US.GV., US.Ob.Ch., US.Universal Sgr. - if you are intending to follow SV/WUSV requirements or the FCI's Int.Ch. requirements you are after a club that is licensed to examine & award HGH or IPO or SchH.
Not being a Yank, I know of only one source for your HGH - that is in NY state. Having 300+ sheep available per candidate IS an obstacle! How far your Watertown is from Alf I have no idea. I don't know whether my friend in the Catskills intends to build her flock up again, after cutting numbers WAY down in preparation for her hip operation.
For IPO/SchH you have 3 options: #1: Start your own branch of the USCA etc; #2: travel to the nearest branch of the USCA or WDA (if it survives) or the AWDA or the FCI operation whose label I don't remember; #3: pay an instructor with one of those or the GSSCC.
Merely grizzling about the situation does NOTHING to improve or solve it.
Going "
all the way to the top" is unnecessary - what you NEED is independent evidence that your pooches' agility, character, obedience, scenting ability, and self-control are within the framework.
You later claim to have taken option #1. But "permanence" points out that you should have based it on the TOWN, not on the camp. Maybe more travel for you, but less travel for the participants and therefore more members and co-organisers.


"Furthermore, Germans can't even comprehend the cost of titling a dog in the US."
QUALIFYING, not "
titling"!
You might be surprised what literate Germans comprehend - the ones I've had contact with are much more aware and better educated than the Yank dog-owners I read in YahooAnswers.
But unless you are a convicted criminal you don't HAVE to stay in the USA.

 



[Gustav] 24.8.2016 - 04:08

"There may be some here that believe titles lead to this superiority of working ability over genetics and knowledge, but the state of SL dogs in Germany completely blows this thinking out of the water."
PLEASE stop calling training
qualifications "titles" - the actual German titles are such as Freiherr, Gräfin, Kanzler, Ritter and Siegerin, not FH, SchH etc.
 

You are sure to be aware that at least 25% of the entrants to the GHKlassen in recent years have NOT been allowed in the main ring for the conformation and gaiting. I've never bothered to find out how many of them are German owned-&-trained, how many are Auslander/fremd (foreign) dogs.

Genetics are, at first thought, all that's needed. But, except for uselessly simple features such as coat colour & length, unsupported HOPES about genetics are inadequate. The genetics of character+intelligence+trainability are far more complex than the genetics for hip dysplasia
(which I suspect to be the result of the interactions between about 7 biological chemicals plus a couple of environmental problems), but unless something significant has slipped past the people in the genetics groups I belong to, only ONE HD-relevant allele has so far been identified - on 31 March 2008 the Hannover Veterinary University (Stiftung Tierärztliche Hochschule Hannover) claimed to have DNA-identified the main gene for HD. I have no idea whether any important alleles for "mentality" have been identified yet, but suspect that the micro-biologists are cunningly focussing on finding genes that control important medical problems.

For the "mentality" aspects we NEED actual proof that the expected alleles were inherited. Whether the litter was intended to be show winners or independent herders or outstanding detection dogs, some sort of TEST has to be passed - and passed HONESTLY, not by dint of extremely long training to help the dog become inured to the triggers of its fears, nor by means of one of the notorious "midnight trials"!
Knowing that there were too many GSDs for them all to be tested on sheep, Max & the SV did the best they could by developing the SchH. But that test:

#1: discourages owners who know that THEY cannot be sure of succeeding when their pooch is 15-18 months old, #2: encourages the use of professional trainers (one of whom had desperate clients sign a Contract that he could p.t.s. their pooch if HE found that it was inadequate) and "co-operative" judges willing to turn their blind eye towards the pooch at crucial moments, and #3: mean that a LONG time has passed before the BREEDER and the owner know whether the pooch is likely to be WORTH training or is one of the "also rans" = the "pet-only"s in the litter.
Which is why, in my rare quiet moments with an uncluttered mind
(no, I'm not confessing as to which is easier to get!), I am investigating the Swedish tests, the first of which is dirt cheap and can be conducted at 7-to-8 weeks old, which means the breeder has had minimal time to attempt to overcome poor genetics with patient & extensive training.



[susie] 24.8.2016 - 18:08

"Gustav, I really like you, but honestly, the vast majority of working lines is not better than the vast majority of show lines, or vice versa"
Hey - are you trying to steal my attitude?
I refuse to separate GSDs into "
WL vs SL", "American vs British vs Czech vs Danish vs German", whatever.
The pooch must FIRST fit within the International Standard and thus attract me as a GSD
(ascertained as best I can from my very limited access to competition venues), and only THEN do I start to take into account whether he (because from 1968 until my last home-bred died in 2010 it was mostly studs I was looking at, apart from our 5 imports) is likely to improve whichever of my bitch's most worrying flaws I want replaced without upsetting whatever her virtues are.


"for a breeder a title is the result of TRAINING, and during training he will learn about the advantages and disadvantages of his/her breeding stock. Afterwards he should think about his breeding program, not instead of."
Damn - did I forget to copyright THAT, too?


"No training=no knowledge about your own dogs
     No comparison=no standard
     No pressure=no proof
"
Good girl - I have to mostly trust my own impression, but actual PROOF is superior.



[Gustav] 25.8.2016 - 01:08
"the reality is the overwhelming majority of SL CANT compete at high levels because of genetics although they are titled and conversely the overwhelming top competitors in (high level) are WL which is only 30 % of the GS in Germany. This is because of genetics, not titles, not training, not trainers, but the genetics of the two lines."
The point I'll make here is that "
compete at high levels" is a different term to different people. For those whose LIVES depend on their dogs' alertness & initiative, NO form of competition is important.
Dogs that "
compete at high levels" in conformation give no indication that they will have those 2 qualities, and so they must be trained & tested.
Dogs that "
compete at high levels" in IPO-etc need to be RETRAINED so that they will target anything that can be used as a weapon, NOT look for what appears to be a padded sleeve that the pooch can pull off and shake triumphantly. And it is QUITE possible for a "DogSport" pooch to turn out to be like the modern Dobermanns that are notorious as "use once" dogs that are useless as of the moment they first feel pain.

Breeders should aim to produce GSDs, not focus on JUST conformation
(as required by show-dogs) or JUST calmness under stress (as required by guide-dogs and aide-dogs and epilepsy-etc-alerting dogs) or JUST eagerness to bite (as required for protection dogs and DogSport). But last time I asked for figures, in my country dog owners stayed in their breed (as measured by membershipo of clubs & NZKC) for an average of just FIVE years! And so the breeders are almost all VERY ancient, or one of the few nonentities who don't yet know enough to be breeders but do it anyway. There isn't the Breed Warden system here - no people who are authorised to approve or disapprove that a planned mating be done, to inspect the litter and inform the breeder which are worth running on, which must be passed to a foster-mother because they are unlikely to be better than pet-only. And, of course, most people of British descent are too arrogant to accept that ANYONE (except maybe their doctor & their lawyer - BOY do they need their lawyer!) is as intelligent as themselves....

Edited by GSDHeritage Admin


by Gustav on 28 August 2016 - 17:08

Whatever you say, Les!





 


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