Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 19

jesse, play/spoil dog for being together and use toy/food as main stimulus to trig the dog to execute some action on command - quite different things.

Valk-
Oh ok, if that is your definition..then no, I dont spoil my dogs and give them treats for nothing.
My dogs do have to work for everything they want. Whether play/toy or food.
Even setting down their meals always incorporates a larger or, if I’m busy, a smaller thing, that they have to do before it goes down. Really always, every time.

Apple - you are correct - I did forget to mention that while teaching the "aus" to my dog - we removed the conflict (yelling and hard corrections) which was going nowhere and only made him bite harder with reward. In the video as you might have noticed - the reward was a bite after the "aus" - in the 2nd video unfortunately the reward was cut off just prior to the bite but you can see him getting ready to bite. Also, we do not do the "aus" all the time - because we don't want him to anticpate and start "aus"ing on his own. Finally, now that he is pretty consistent with his "aus" he does not get the reward bite ALL the time either after the "aus" as that is counter productive too.

Hope this clarifies.

no Jesse, contrary - i do pamper my dogs with pieces of delicious to them food and playing with them just for play. not as reward for work but as for being mine partner/friend.
no food or toy as reward during the exercises.
sure, the bite can be seen as reward but the bite is a part of exercises and i don't see necessity to reward dog by the bite during obedience, nose work or even as reward, following for release of bite.

Valk-
That’s great too. But everything you do, is a reinforcement for some behavior or other...whether you name it as such or not doesn't matter. It still is.
Sure, the bite is part of a particular exercise, but also satisfying to the dog thus is a reinforcement in various ways, usually as in to let him do it again after he does something else you ask of him. 
You don’t have to reward DURING the exercise, but it is always a good idea to do so occasionally right afterwards. Once the dog knows the exercise, I don’t reward while he’s working either. Only afterwards....and later on, intermittently.

Added: there are some “auto” reinforcements, if you will (don’t know what they might be called in dog training lingo) that are built-into some exercises, for example like getting a bite or chasing after the thrown article.

Jesse, i'm not advanced in terminology manipulation.
but what i was taught from very beginning is the bond and established hierarchy is the key in the dog training.
best if you start to interact with your pup in teaching manner as soon as he becomes active explorer of his surrounding. that should be age 4~5 weeks.
that stage of teaching should be based on playing with pup and implementing in game simple obedience vocal commands and actions for them.

anyway, so far it's works for me and in the past 40 years i didn't have reason to switch to something else.

Valk-
I don’t feel I am manipulating terminology. It is what it is.

And, I’m not saying anything much different than you are.
You should play with your dogs from the beginning of earliest puppydom. Playing and all games are not only games, but are the “serious business” of learning. They are done to teach. In the animal world as well as human world.

You said it yourself:
“that stage of teaching should be based on playing with pup and implementing in game simple obedience vocal commands and actions for them”.

What do you think all that is? Well, it is called reinforcement. You are doing things that the puppy likes, to make the puppy repeat it behavior and learn that way. Believe it or not, we are on the same page (I think).

Juno: " If I don't give him a command to turn "on" he will turn "on" on his own when he sees a decoy,"

Prager: Why should he turn "on" on his own this is a mistake I am talking about. In my world if the dog turns on on his own when under my controll then such dog is misbehaving and I am not in a leadership position. There are exceptions to such rule like an automatic attack but that is a different story where a dog is trained to attck at specific threat.

Juno: Videoshttps://youtu.be/vUJ7uEt9-qo

https://youtu.be/o_jedtZ54_Q

Prager: This dog is not outing from protection this dog is playing and he thinks it is a joke. But joke is on you since with this type of work dog will never be serious - which is the premise of this thread.

 

Duke:@ Prager, same goes for your story, if you call pozor in empty room the dog will expect helper/trigger, but since there is no he will be confused after some time and say, hey you said pozor, so now by my pavlov way of learning, there must be a decoy jumping out now, if that happens that will trigger my drive

 Prager : You are talking apples and oranges. I am using this example of a command in  an empty room to show that I can put the dog in drive even though he is not in presence of the decoy.  IMO it is shitty training leading to a lot of negative baggage if the decoy is a 'trigger" that is what I am talking ihere all along is wrong. The only "trigger" to kick the dog's drive in gear MUST BE THE COMMAND AND NOT THE SIGHT OF THE DECOY.   Previously you said is not possible for the dog to go in drive if he does not see a decoy . The empty room example was here just to show you  that it is possible.What will confuse the dog or not is an issue of this topic, but by you generated straw man. 

 Valk:"duke, why someone in his mind would be cheating his dog like this?"

prager: do not let Duke confuse you with his stra man sophistry. My point was that you should be able to alert the dog even though he does not see a decoy. In training decoy often comes into pictures moments later. But that was not the point . The point I am making all along is that the handler can and should be able to on command turn the dog's drive on or off. which is not what duke does on his video which is OK but what he does on his video will not teach the dog to be as reliably calm  as he would be if you teach the dog to shut down his drive. 

The mistake Duke and many people are doing is that they think that dog must automatically get into drive when he sees a toy or decoy and that is not necessarily so. As a matter of fact, after decades of doing it wrong, I have arrived at the conclusion that that is very wrong approach to training protection. It is totally undesirable for the dog to turn on, just because he sees decoy or toy or sleeve suite and on and on. Dog must stay "calm" ( not just under control while in drive but calm) in mind and not in drive when in presence of such objects or persons.  

ValK:"i was asking in regard of that remark:

if the decoy doesnot show up for 5 or ten times the dog will get more confused and eventually stop reacting to your "Pozor""

Prager.Please keep in mind that that is what Duke says and not me. Only an idiot would train dog that way. By the way intermittent reinforcement of the drive increases the intensity of the dogs expression of drive. jessyjones said it very well here:
Intermittent reinforcement is proven by many lab studies to work, and is likened to gambling at slot machines. How long will we stand there and throw in coins, just in the hopes of a win or a jackpot. We can be conditioned on expectation of a reward alone. Studies have shown that intermittent reinforcement is often more effective than constant dependable reinforcement.
So when I command the dog to alert in an empty room and he gets decoy every time after that, then his intensity does not go up but if done too often it may actually go down. Where if the decoy shows only now and then and dog is only periodically rewarded and then randomly not rewarded by bite on decoy than such unsatisfied expectations of a reward will increase the intensity of the dog's drive.
All that is because the expectation of the action will increase endorphins BEFORE the action and if action now and then does not come, then the increase of endorphins go up even higher.

jessyjones: "Of course toys and treats should be used as reinforcers for a long long time to learn a new behavior until it is very firmly entrenched in muscle memory.......To LEARN a new behavior or sequence, always reward with a high value. Always."
Prager Hans: The problem with that logic is that in the real life there are for dog an infinity of higher value rewards then toy or treat. That is why such training while OK in a sport where competitions are usually distraction-free, such an approach will fail more often than you would care to endure in real life scenarios. And it usually happens when you need it the least. There are other ways to reward the dog then toy and treat, but that is another book.

Prager, Im not getting into a yes-no-yes-no discussion, keep up the good work ,

and love to see the video where you put a dog in drive in an empty room on command,