correcting grips/biting on edge of sleeve and mouthing up and down - Page 1

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by heidii on 26 April 2017 - 07:04

I have a 2.5 year old IPO1 malinois bitch.
I have issues with her grips. She was developed early on by 2 brand new helpers, 1 my husband and the other who is no longer around as ipo was too hard for him .

She bites on the edge of the sleeve instead of in the middle but will bite in the middle of a target wedge most times. She does not seem to like a full grip either and its always a 3/4 grip but i can live with this if everything else is good.
I have been told to put a plastic end on the sleeve so she doesnt bite there and it forces her to bite in the middle which is fine but how do i stop her going up and down the sleeve. When she is on a harness she is alot better but again off harness and she is back to old ways. In a trial she is good as she doesnt know the helper and she gets angry fair easily and therefor has alot better grips.

After abit of research it says to stop my husband working her and i do believe this has contributed to her shitty grips - do i only work her with strangers which we only have access to fairly rarely?

Any other ideas for my husband being able to still work her as she is still learning little things and i won't to be able to tell him what to do so i can train my way.

by vk4gsd on 26 April 2017 - 07:04

What about those plastic cover things that direct the bite to where you want?

Caution on teeth getting broken.

by heidii on 26 April 2017 - 08:04

Yes we are getting a cover for the sleeve :)

susie

by susie on 26 April 2017 - 10:04

It´s difficult to train a green dog with green helpers, and one of them being your husband for sure didn´t make things easier, so first of all congrats for the IPO 1 !

Helpers having problems with the proper technique,
dog maybe having issues with one helper being part of the family...
better on harness ( guess, that means better on leash )

You say she is okay with "strange" helpers - more agression, better grip.

In case you really "need" the help of your husband at home ( "little things" ), are you able to work in "prey only" ( on leash ) to avoid conflict? Most things you can even teach by using a ball or something else besides the sleeve.

It´s about the routine, you can transfer learned behavior into bitework later on.

For "grip only" I like the old fashioned rubber pipe roll, the dog has to open the mouth and has to hold...but you need a helper with a good feeling for pressure/release

An image


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 26 April 2017 - 11:04

Where do you live? You have to find an experienced training helper that can not only help you fix the grip but also teach your husband how to work your female.

yogidog

by yogidog on 26 April 2017 - 11:04

Seems to me her grips are fine if she is good with a handler she does not know. Everything your can do with a sleeve u can do with a ball and guess what you won't mess up the grip. I Always start with a ball and a fly pole teach to bark teach good humping and so on . I only ever work in prey drive . If your husband's pushing to much she might be going into defense and when that happens she get confused and that will mess things up. When your training your dog it's your job to make it fun never make her think she has to defend her self. That is the job of a decoy.

by Bavarian Wagon on 26 April 2017 - 13:04

Biting on the end of the sleeve and 3/4 grips are nerve based things. Unlikely to go away and I really wouldn't blame a helper for them.

Makes sense that it's better on a targeting wedge because that's way more prey and zero pressure. Once the sleeve is on the body...there's natural pressure there.

At this age...I don't think you're fixing anything. Keep moving, just know you'll lose points for grip. If you trial under a helper that knows her, he can help her center up and also go full, but more than likely she'll always bite the way she does. IMO...spending months trying to fix a grip rarely works and just ends up being a waste of time. The grip can be full and centered on your husband, or your usual trianing helper, but the moment the dog is on someone else she doesn't know, her genetic grip will come out.


Q Man

by Q Man on 26 April 2017 - 13:04

I think there are a number of things going on here that need to be addressed...

I believe in making things very simple...Dogs are not complicated they see things in Black & White...It's your job to see and understand how they're seeing them...

It's very difficult for a new "Helper" (inexperienced) to teach Grips...You have to understand when to give and take and how to offer a correct grip...
When using a sleeve...the cover with plastic on both ends certainly can help...But a good/experienced "Helper" can offer a correct grip without that...

I don't know your dog and have never seen her work but maybe she's getting bad grips from bad presentations or from something else like being nervy or nervous at certain times...

Dogs learn from doing something...Correctly...Over and Over again...As was said by others YOU can help with using a small "tug" and do a little Ob and offer a bite on the tug...Just be sure to give the tug correctly so she gets a Good...Full Grip...Then work her a bit and "Out" and do it over again...

~Bob~

susie

by susie on 26 April 2017 - 16:04

Bav, I may be wrong, but I don´t think grip itself is "genetic",
whereas temperament and nerves are.

A shallow grip often results out of weaker nerves/temperament, but pretty often a shallow grip is the result of unprofessional training ( not blaming OPs husband, everybody has to learn, not his fault ).
I have seen too many dogs "rushed" through tug - puppy sleeve - sleeve to believe in genetics only.

We don´t know the dog in question, she may well be in conflict with the decoy/owner situation.

by Bavarian Wagon on 26 April 2017 - 17:04

In my mind…the last person a dog should have any conflict with is someone it lives with. Defense/fight should almost disappear and the dog should basically bite in prey/play. Yes…biting might not be genetic if you want to go deeper and blame nerves and temperament, but the grip is how we see the weak nerves/temperament in a dog. If it were just grip…I’d say it might be fixed, but the fact that the dog prefers to bite on the hand, it points to a nerve issue for me. The fact that the dog from the start would bite a sleeve at the hand, tells me it wanted to bite there and not just bite a sleeve wherever. Even with a new helper, eventually they learn presentation and a good dog will just bite the sleeve wherever if the nerves are right.

And you’re right Susie…a ton of dogs are rushed from rag to hard sleeve when they don’t need to be. Dogs that can only title at 15 months old are being thrown on hard sleeves at 7 months just because “they can.” That will hurt a dog’s development and is many times irreversible.

Dog can still get through a trial and title. It won’t be amazing, it will lose points for grip, but it will pass if everything else is done correctly. If it’s worth it to the OP, then go back to softer things and teach the dog to bite again, but it’s a long process that doesn’t guarantee fixed grips at the end if this is a nerve thing. I’d say it’s at least 6 or more months of rag/pillow/soft sleeve work that would need to be done. Also teaching the dog to re-grip and push in when not full. The fact that this isn’t natural/genetic to the dog is going to mean this is going to be a difficult process for any helper, especially a new one. Teaching a dog to re-grip can also lead to a dog learning to munch on a sleeve and that will lose the same points a shallow grip does.





 


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