Breeding untitled dogs - Page 1

Rita wrote: "If the Germans had to drive for 2 or 3 hours to training, I can guarantee you, you wouldn't find any titled dogs over there either." Good point, and I heard it many times before. I hope this doesn’t turn into bashing and name-calling, but since this seems to be the current trend for many breeders, it’s worth a discussion. We can all relate to lack of training opportunities in the US. I know first-hand how frustrating it is to work hard for a year and be just a few months off from titling your dog when your helper moves to another state and you don’t have a substitute. I will take your word, Rita, when you say that you have some untitled dogs who are much better than some of the titled ones. As an educated consumer looking for, lets say, a sport dog, I can look at your dog’s pedigree, check the parents, test the puppies and make an informed decision. I bet there are quite a few titled dogs in their pedigree not too far removed. Right now this is not a problem--we still import and breed lots of titled dogs. But lets look at 10 years into the future, when we have 5-6 generations of untitled dogs. How am I, or someone who is just starting in the sport, is to differentiate between your excellent working lines and someone else’s who’s a BYB breeder? Should we rely on a breeder’s marketing skills alone? Where is proof that that working ability is still there? Shouldn’t we come to some kind of an acceptable plan for the betterment—or just maintaining-- of the breed and stick to it, no matter how hard it is? Oh, almost forgot—Merry Christmas to y’all!!!

But, there are other countries where people have to drive similar distances to here to get to a good club. Yes, it takes a bit longer to title, but how can you test your dog? I might considered a puppy from such a breeding, but it would also be based on the pedigree, what the dog is being worked on currently and the experience of the owner. And what I mean by experience is how active that person is in training and titling their own dogs (or possibly other dogs) and to what level. People will degrade others who breed untitled females to titled males. But, if those people do the same with little expereince, what is the difference?

Also there are countries that do not require dogs to be titled but yet most of the dogs bred are titled. Such as Belgium, Netherlands. I believe the USCA should develop a program to bridge the time to when we have enough clubs and helpers. I have on my computer something I am working on, that would accomplish this I believe. I personally don't care if a dog is titled or not. Although before I would buy a pup from a breeding like this I would want to work the parent. I have not bred my male yet, and we hope to go to the HOT compeition and he will probably be the oldest dog competing in the Sch1. But I don't care. If someone were to consider breeding to him, I would absolutely make him available for them to work.:) Ed

You are all complaining about how few clubs you have over there. But did you ask yourself why it is so??? It's not that some magic man gives us the clubs and opportunity to train our dog over here in Germany. WE ARE the clubs ourselves, the bit of land on the city outskirts does not cost that much, and it's us the members who are paying for it and the bits and pieces of the equipment that's needed. It's us the members who bring up the work, the free labour to make the clubs work and to maintain them. Our helpers and Ausbildungswärte love the dogs and work for no more then that love. We all also have families and jobs and businesses to run, but for the love for our dogs we do find the time 2-3 times a week to make it work propely. So maybe you should stop complaining that no almightly big club gives you an opportunity to work your dogs, may be you should go out and make it happen. :) Just an observation. :)

I think that there are many ways to prove the workability of this breed and we should not be as quick to criticize others but put our efforts into developing socially acceptable titles. Recently in a conversation ,(at the NASS), I found out that in the United States now many states are banning the breed from insurance eligibility and worse yet many zoning regulations are now banning the "protection" work under vicious dog laws. These issues are going to greatly impact the ability to own a GSD and to prove the "working ethics" of this breed. And what about the foreign "laws" that are now clouding our sport? In many Countries SchH is not allowed. I was told Italy, Denmark and Australia to name a few. I became naucious listening to THIS NIGHTMARISH CONCEPT! Can you imagine being served a "cease and desist" court order because your neighbor reported you for training "attack dog" maneuvers? I have to wonder what are the organizations that we all belong to doing to help protect the breed from these unfair insurance hit lists and what are the organizations doing to protect the future of our dog sport?

Ed, I agree. But what you are also seeing over here (USA) in the increase of "paid" helpers within a club (in addition to club dues and other expenses - and where is the incentive to work your dog at a normal, not slow pace), said helpers and others that are not training helpers but are presented as such and Training directors that really have not been active in the sport. Even on titled dogs, I would want to see the work. POints and titles do not mean much - it also depends on where and under whom (judge and helper) the dog was titled. I am looking for the work in the dog in different circumstances.

It all boils down to what your involvement and dedication is to the sport and to the dogs. There are many excuses not to title. People that want to and believe in the system will or will find a way. Sure it's difficult, if it wasn't work, everyone would have a titled dog. Consumers (puppy buyers and newbys) don't always understand the whole system. Many if not most can't tell what V and a1 stand for. So part of the problem is the market (about 95%) of the puppy buyers just want a pet and will not spend the money to get a dog from titled parents over untitled parents. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, it simply is the way it is. So in the end it's up to the individual breeder in the US to decide what standards they want to uphold. Excuses and circumstances aside each breeder makes the decision how they will set the future of the breed through their breeding program.

"We all also have families and jobs and businesses to run, but for the love for our dogs we do find the time 2-3 times a week to make it work propely." How much time, 2 or 3 times a week, is the issue here. While I am not trying to minimize your efforts there, Schaeferhund, I think you are making an unreasonable comparison because you are leaving out two factors that make your training situation in Germany possible and a similar situation here difficult...land mass and population density. At just a little over 350,000 sq. km, Germany is just slightly smaller than the state of Montana yet has almost a third as many people as the entire United States. A greater concentration of people brings with it the likelihood that more people who share a given interest will be nearer to one another. Keith skyd1ve@hotmail.com

Schaeferhund, Sue, and Dog1 have made excellent points. In my opinion, if you are going to breed untitled dogs, you should be prepared for whatever people say about you and your dogs. The same is true for those who do breed titled dogs. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. And take your excuses with you. I have have driven, many times, over 3 1/2 hours to train my dog. I live in a suburban area and often have trouble finding somewhere to track. Oh, well. I cope with it. If you can't take a few hours once a week or so to get to a good club, then you should rethink your decision to breed, and indeed, your commitment to the maintenance of the working GSD. If you can't, or won't, the suck it up and send your dog to a reputable trainer for it's titles. If you still refuse to do these things and insist on breeding, accept that you will be criticized by people who work their butts off to uphold the standard. Albeit, I am a baby in this world compared to most of you. But I think I'm starting off on the right foot. I'm going through gas, time, and money like water. But a person loves the breed as much as they claim, is there really any other way?

Oh, Schaeferhund, I only wish it was that easy!! I've got to agree with VOR, Troll, Sue and BlackGSD on this one. It's miserable to find a club AND the right trainer! As Sue knows, and we have discussed before, the challenge of finding a club with an adequate trainer in the North Bay of the SF Bay Area in California is a big challenge. Real estate prices, insurance costs, litigiousness, and the humaniacs discourage those with property from allowing protection work. It's a sad state of affairs. And, like VOR said, when the honeymoon is over with your trainer/helper, and he/she moves on to greener pastures, or his/her true colors come to light, you're stuck finding another helper. ROTSA RUCK!! Consider yourself lucky if they don't walk off with club equipment, too! Really, we're not American Whiney Babies, but asking for IDEAS and SUGGESTIONS from parent organizations!