Defense - Page 17

Pedigree Database

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by beetree on 03 May 2016 - 15:05

It just boils down to the old, Nature vs. Nurture argument.

Except now, the computer definiton of "default setting" is being inserted as dog wisdom in the modern age.

If the genetics are there for a civil dog, they will override any first experience the dog might have of a bite that uses equipment.

Which leads to the question, if it is nature (genetics) that overcomes nurture (training or experience), then being able to "set the default", just is not true.


by joanro on 03 May 2016 - 15:05

If a dog is genetically civil, first training can effect the civil propensity. That's what training is: either molding instinct (genetics) for useful/desired behavior, or even extinguishing instinctual behavior. That's why training matters:-)


by beetree on 03 May 2016 - 15:05

You talk about suppressing a strong genetic trait, or instinct— with training, and I would agree.

That is not saying that the reverse is true? That, even the best training will not be able to overcome a genetic weakness (under the stress needed for defense). So, is it possible to be "setting a default"? Are we to say that using that phrase means: It is sitting back (on the porch) and watching what the genetics are dictating; either doing nothing, or praising a response will reinforce the propensity, or delivering a correction will extinquish the propensity.

We would have to first identify the genetics first, as strong or weak, then, as to what nurturing affects will be most lasting, or if at all?

 

default, in computer science, refers to a setting or a value automatically assigned to a software application, computer program or device, outside of user intervention.


by joanro on 03 May 2016 - 16:05

I don't ascribe to the 'default' lingo.
Training is molding, controlling instinct in any animal. Training can unintentionally bring out undesired instincts, as well as suppress the instincts...intentionally or not.
For example utilization of hunting instincts for herding compared to hunting instincts for search and rescue compared to hunting instincts for boar hunting.
Or, as example, the instinct horses have to eliminate a predictor on their back must be suppressed/extinguished when a horse is used as a saddle horse, but that same instinct is encouraged for bronc riding in a rodeo.

Prager

by Prager on 03 May 2016 - 16:05

I have seen some recommending muzzle attacks ( Duke) . I would like to make some points about it. Muzzle attack is a valuable step in training of a dog to civil dog. But it is not proof that the dog is civil. There are dogs which will beat you to death with the muzzle yet will not engage during the real street bite. Same as dog behind the fence during another valuable training - fence agitation- will act like - "If can get to you you are dead" yet when you open a gate some dogs will shut down or even run. Muzzle is really like a fence agitation where the fence is on the dog 's face.

Also some more intelligent breeds and dogs will not engage with the muzzle on because they know that they can not bite the bad guy anyway. That does not mean that such dog is not civil.
Prager Hans

by Gee on 03 May 2016 - 16:05

Hi Hans,

With all due respect, I can honestly say the following:
I have never encountered a dog in twenty years of civil training, that showed a dog who was suitably serious in the muzzle, then checked out on a bite - ever.


From a training perspective you can of course test the above, by using a quality hidden sleeve. (I prefer a leg sleeve and a realisticly delivered kick in a new envirnoment to the dog, I posted a vid on the previous page demonstrating just that)

Agitating a dog behind a fence bears no resemblance to putting a dog in a muzzle, and asking him to engage a man.


The vast majority of dogs - all breeds, will put on a decent mock threat display from behind a fence, and yes - if you open the gate, will lick you to death.

Also, by agitating a dog from behind a fence, you are acting in an over the top way - overly stimulating the dog to get a reaction. 

IMO, not a good idea - if you want  a true reading of civil ability.


The vast majority of GSD's will not  fight a man if muzzled, even fewer will engage if the suspect is NOT screaming and dancing. 

Also you say some inteligent breeds will not engage if muzzled, then they are picking and choosing there fights, not a dog I would want to stand behind. A dog with the correct civil drive will not be able to restrain himself, even if he has the inconvenience of having the muzzle on.

Just to be clear however - I am not saying a dog who is poor in the muzzle won't bite civil, my concern would be that lower threshold will impact on him reliably and consistently engaging, especialy under pressure.

I would consider the GSD very inteligent, but in my experience, drive tops inteligence EVERY time - if the dog has a high enough fight / civil drive.

Certainly the muzzle is only one tool in gauging / conditioning civil ability, in my book an invaluable one.

All the best.


Regards
Gee


Prager

by Prager on 03 May 2016 - 17:05

beetree:

It just boils down to the old, Nature vs. Nurture argument.

Except now, the computer definiton of "default setting" is being inserted as dog wisdom in the modern age.

If the genetics are there for a civil dog, they will override any first experience the dog might have of a bite that uses equipment.

Which leads to the question, if it is nature (genetics) that overcomes nurture (training or experience), then being able to "set the default", just is not true.

 

Hans: Word default exists for hundreds of years. Since at least 13 century - I looked it up. 

 I will disagree with your premise that "if it is nature (genetics) that overcomes nurture (training or experience), then being able to "set the default", just is not true."

  It is asy to throw around statements like this as a  familiar mantra . even though such statement may aply elsewhere , in this case there is a problem with the statement above  since  it is misapplied due to the    lack of   understanding of how such default ( or "default setting" if you so desire)  is established.  Defaults in the dog's mind are real and we know, for example,  that sleeve dog will for rest of his life prefer sleeve if he is given the option or when under stress.  We can retrain such dog but the sleeve default is there for ever. For predator (  and other animals) establishing of such defaults is a matter of survival based on the logical fact that what worked before will most likely work again. Default serves to the dog not to relearn same thing  over and over again. 

Since we talk about protection training of dogs then  first let's agree that all protection is based on drives like defense drive and prey drive and different variations there of. Thus yes it is a fact that    drives are inherited and thus determined by genetics. However what the drives are used at or NOT used at ,  is determined by environment  e.g. in training. Thus in nature canine will not chase tug toy or car  but it will chase a edible prey. If , in nature,  the prey's defense mechanism (like  very unpleasant bitter taste of some bug or plant or smelly like skunk  and so on) will on first attempt to eat it , tells to  such predator that it tastes or smell like crap, then such predator will learn not to hunt is and eat it,  and it will avoid it  and this knowledge  will be with him  for rest of his life.  Thus default . If the predator hunts and  eats a prey  and it is good, then it will hunt and eat it for rest of his life if available. Some Orcas and other predators like wolf, for examples are very selective about their choice of prey which is not inherited  but is learned from older pack members or orca pods members , in this case  by collective experience. ( money see monkey do).  thaqt is why it is very hard to release predators  like eagles or Orcas or wolf and so on into nature if they were risen in captivity. In captivity,  they did not learn these permanent survival skills which  I call defaults, which would enable them to survive. 

 This ability  to learn how to employ predators's drives is then utilized  in our training of our dogs to protect.  The dog then instead rabbit chases toy or decoy. These learned  experiences are then permanent and dog returns to them by default. 

here is the adage: 

 What I call Default ( or default setting if you like) is what the dog learns first in particular type of a scenario. I 
The fact then is that "what the dog learns first, likes most and does best and reverts to under stress

 Thus this is not about "nature vs nurture" but it is about nature (genetically based drives)  using experiences to establish permanent defaults.

Thus  when I train I keep this in mind and make sure that my dog's first experiences are condusive to the purpose the dog is going to serve when trained. 

 Prager Hans 

 

 


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 03 May 2016 - 17:05



HI Gee some good posts and videos always good stuff to read.

by Ibrahim on 03 May 2016 - 18:05

Good points beetree, makes sense to me

by Gustav on 03 May 2016 - 18:05

There is difference in a naturally civil dog and a dog trained to be civil. I do NOT know that a naturally civil dog that is started on sleeve will always prefer sleeve when under stress. ( some do, many don't) Actually, my experience with K9 dogs is that the naturally civil dogs when engaged in fight with assailant will bite whatever they can reach. They often bite the torso from frontal bite and on back on runaway bites. Some of the more prey oriented dogs that the have been started on sleeve and converted into civil dog; I have seen definitely may show inclination for arm bite......but it has not been my experience that because a dog has been started on a sleeve, they all will go for arm/sleeve when put under pressure. Some will, but many( naturally civil) do not. Possibly I'm the only one who has experienced this, but it's what I've seen.






 


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