by Rik on 22 September 2021 - 13:09
I absolutely meant no offense to anyone and apologize to you if it came across that way.
by Klossbruhe on 22 September 2021 - 14:09
In Germany there is still the national herding championships, the Bundesleistungshüten though it is by no means as popular as the Bundessiegerzuchtschau or the Bundessiegerprufung or the Agility Championships. Nowadays, only professional shepherds (men and women not dogs) take part. 40 years ago though there were pros like Karl Fuller and his wonderful Kirschental dogs (Eiko was sieger in 1988) everyday farmers and even a few city folk competed. No more.
At the end of the day, in my opinion, working ability should mean the ability to do work whether it is in IGP or similar tests, or for the police, the military, as blind person's guide dog, therapy dog, bomb or cadaver finder, or just as a well behaved family companion and protector.
Valk's question about VAs was really misguided. A VA is a conformation rating given out at national championship shows. By definition, a conformation show is not about working ability. Yet, the German Shepherd Dog Sieger Shows require a dog to pass the Defense against the Attack on Handler (Uberfall am Hundefuhrer) under control and long bite (courage test) What other breed requires dogs to pass such tests before they can even enter and be exhibited in the show ring?
I have been at many sieger shows in Germany where workinglines people watching the bitework boo at the dogs. They are misguided. It is a minimum test, a test of the dogs' nerves. It is not a bitework or protection competition. All that is required is that the dog do a reasonable performance. If not, the dog fails. If the dog refuses to bite, does not guard, does not out, it cannot be shown. That is something for which we can still be proud. No other breed requires this for a beauty contest.
by johan77 on 22 September 2021 - 15:09
As far as what test/workingtrial that should be used. I don´t think that is the main issue, there are various national different workingtrials and tests in different countries that the GSD are being titled/tested in besides SCH, and also dogs working in different "real" jobs. Sure, the more demanding the test/trial is there is less room for dogs that lacks in drives and workingability. But if SCH is not worth much it still is difficult enough that it takes a "workingline" to perform well and there are still good policedogs that comes from a long line of SCH-titled dogs.
by Hundmutter on 22 September 2021 - 15:09
Klossebruhe, what you wrote makes perfect sense to me.
ValK and I have differed before on just what were Von Stephanitz's wishes and intentions, back at the very beginning. He put together SHEEP dogs - precisely.
Why, if one was disaffected with the herding abilities of 'Scotch' (Rough) Collies - then the leading Shepherds' dog in the world - would you do that, if you were determined to develop a breed whose primary purpose was manwork for the Forces ? Just an attraction to physical appearance ? I think probably NOT !
Does not really matter what developed later, from that perspective - other peoples' requirements surfaced. But I do not recall anything 'In Word & Picture' about any depth of preoccupation with bitework. Even looking at original (Shutzhund) rules & even tho' I too can only read it in translation.
[And to carry that obsession with bitework forward into failing to believe that other countries can produce good Police Dogs, just because they don't fit your own ideas as to what the perfect GSD should be like, is so unaccepting of other points of view that it verges on crazy. But reflects on just how some of the PP people carry on ...]
by ValK on 22 September 2021 - 22:09
"it seems rather odd that a breed would be officially named Schäferhund and not be originally intended for sheep herding."
how come "not be originally intended for sheep herding"?
this was main use of dogs before they become officially recognized breed and many continued such duty after receiving pedigree.
organized approach to breeding only have expanded usage of those dogs into spheres where they wasn't used before.
in regard of breed name, perhaps creators just preserved word "schafer" as a reference to origin where did these dogs come from.
after all it wasn't mix of different dogs to create totally new and never previously existent type of dog.
by ValK on 22 September 2021 - 23:09
"in his opinion, the top dogs are those who are the best working dogs."
isn't how it should be when selecting top representative of working breed?
"Valk would measure top dogs on the basis their protection."
i guess you got such impression from seeing my other posts.
that's true enough in respect of my experience but false in respect of my view and perception of GSD breed. main my experience were related to patrol dogs but the priority of importance of dog's service in society i'm giving to dogs who serves 24/7/365 - personal assistance dogs for people with disabilities and limited or lost vision, followed by EDD dogs, SAR/tracking dogs.
as for patrol dogs, sure they also have their place. unarmed person have no chance to win confrontation with properly bred and trained patrol dog but utilization of this dog's ability in real life happens very rarely and usually such dogs bring in rather a preventive psychological effect than being utilized to full capacity.
"Valk's question about VAs was really misguided... By definition, a conformation show is not about working ability."
so what in my question was misguided?
there are event in which among hundreds of dog of working breed selected ones, who represent this breed at its best and... choosing the winner because of color and fluffiness.
it's not even sad. it's beyond the sadness.
by Mackenzie on 23 September 2021 - 13:09
It is no coincidence that grey dogs always achieve excellent results from the Bundessiegerschau over many years. The decline in their conformation is due to breeders whose only aim is for a working dogs that bite hard. These people does not understand that work and confirmation go hand in hand to such an extent that they have tried from time to time attempted to divide the breed and call their faction as a separate breed and changing the name.
The GSD will always be a working breed that can be shown.
by Klossbruhe on 23 September 2021 - 14:09
To bad, we are where we are because most of the show breeders concentrated on producing pretty dogs and working lines breeders concentrated on bite work. Up until the 70s, we did not see this phenomenon. Could we go back to producing dogs like those back then. Maybe, but it would take at least a decade and a big change of mindset on everyone's behalf. And unfortunately, nowadays, everybody is in a hurry, so it seems it is pretty unlikely.
The GSD besides being a loyal protector must be able to live in today's world and not that of 60 years ago. It must have a stable temperament. It must not be a dog which is lunging after children and people as it is walked down the street.
by Sunsilver on 23 September 2021 - 16:09
These people does not understand that work and confirmation go hand in hand to such an extent that they have tried from time to time attempted to divide the breed and call their faction as a separate breed and changing the name.
REALLY?? I've seen a number of showline GSDs that couldn't even do the meter jump because their overangulated hind ends weren't strong enough! Haven't you heard what a lousy job most show line dogs do in the Sieger protection test? It is becoming more and more strictly a beauty contest as it is in North America with the ASL dogs!
by mrdarcy on 24 September 2021 - 04:09
Sunsilver, did you not read what Klossbruhe wrote above? Think that explains it very well as they are discussing the VA titles at the Sieger I believe
" I have been at many sieger shows in Germany where workinglines people watching the bitework boo at the dogs. They are misguided. It is a minimum test, a test of the dogs' nerves. It is not a bitework or protection competition. All that is required is that the dog do a reasonable performance. If not, the dog fails. If the dog refuses to bite, does not guard, does not out, it cannot be shown. That is something for which we can still be proud. No other breed requires this for a beauty contest."
So jumping a meter is of no importance really.