Would you breed a blue mal? - Page 3

Pedigree Database


by Koots on 21 October 2019 - 20:10

Hired - yes, the Mal that is not papered could likely have other breeds in the background, and the Mal that is papered may have other breeds. This does not change the fact that certain traits within species are poly-genetic, and this can include colour with an undesired trait. I do not know why the originators of the breed excluded certain colours from the standard - perhaps they saw an association of a certain colour with an undesired trait through observation.    The OP asked for our opinion if we would breed a non-standard coloured Mal because it's a great working dog.    My answer is no, just as I would not breed my GSD who has epilepsy, no matter how good he is.

by ValK on 21 October 2019 - 20:10

Hired Dog: "are those dogs close to any standard that resembles a GSD in any capacity?"

at first brief look they do seems like GSDs :)

i think Rick is right. those nuances about desirable traits in breed was established way back, when perception of dogs for certain purposes was based on efficiency of dogs in work.
if observation have confirmed link between abnormality in color and weakness of trait, necessary to be effective in performance - who are we to rewrite centuries of practical knowledge.


by Sunsilver on 21 October 2019 - 23:10

That's interesting. Nikita, mom of my last dog, did deliver in each litter couple "blue" pups.
albeit my wasn't "blue" but after he passed 10 years mark, he didn't become deaf but indeed started to show decline in his hearing.
curious if that has anything to do with that recessive "blue" gene?

Valk, no it wouldn't. If the deafness were due to the blue colour, the dog would be deaf from birth, because the lack of pigment affects the inner ear. Any loss of hearing after 10 years of age would be strictly age-related.

The blue gene in GSDs is not related to deafness, and I am sure the same holds true for mals, as the two breeds are closely related. It's the blue MERLE gene that causes problems, and that is not a gene that is present in German shepherds, though it's present in many other breeds.

by Hired Dog on 22 October 2019 - 04:10


Results for Blue is a dilution. It is on the D-locus and is single recessive. That inherits as follows: D is not a dilute d is a dilution If a dog has D / d, it carries dilution, but because it is recessive, it needs two genes to show it. If a dog has d / d it is dilute, vurdund so. Black then becomes gray, brown becomes isabel (the color of a weimaraner). Both parents must be carriers to have blue puppies, but if both parents are carriers, you will not see that in the parents. Only when the puppies can it come out. Theoretically, those puppies have 50% D / D, 25% D / d and 25% d / d. In other words: 50% have and do not carry a dilute, 25% wear it but do not show it and 25% wear and show it. Dilute is a fixed feature, in other words: the gray does not become grayer. What can change is the dog's sable pattern: it can become less dark on the back; normally less black, in this case less gray. The light pigments (red in this case) are hardly affected by dilute. You therefore see little to no difference in that with a non-dilute. This sort of thing has nothing to do with purity. Color is also not linked to character. What could be that it occurs more often in a certain line and that it happens to be a certain predisposition. But the color itself has nothing to do with it, that is really a fairy tale.

This is a translation of what BM posted earlier in Dutch. I did not make it up, Google did the translation.

by apple on 22 October 2019 - 06:10

You are absolutely correct that color has nothing to do with temperament except by coincidence or certain strains that are a particular color lack the genetics for performance, but it is not due to the color. They simply lack the genetics for strong temperament. In the GSD, a good example is sables vs. the black and red show dogs. It is not the color that determines the dogs temperament, but that other traits are missing.

by Centurian on 22 October 2019 - 07:10

Apple , Yes ... but then again think of this : the more prominent the black/red became so did the acceleration in the loss of certain specific behavioral traits..... so what are we to make of that ? You might think black/red bred to black/ red ... those specific traits would be passed on to the progeny if owned by the parents. So ..... why the loss of the traits , if they were present at one time in the parents and cpould have / should have been passed on to the prgeny ? Why the loss - why not those traits at the beginning of the black/ red not passed on ? Hmmmmm

by Centurian on 22 October 2019 - 08:10

Hired Every dog that is owned fulfills a deep [ psychological ] need. Every dog that is onwed fulfills a purpose and that is just a fact . A dog , in this case a Mal or a GS that is a home compnaion [ and I did not say a pet ] that is ready and willing to even at the very least  alert it's family , watch over/protect it's property , watch over the children , IMOp is no more nor is it any less than any other dog in any other avenue of it's purpose. Someone that banks on that dog to watch over it's family 24/7 is just as important as any LE canine and fulfills a responsibility . How more or less is that an important task than any other purpose or task ? The dogs I have trained for police duty , my personal protection GSs , my sport Gss and Mal were no more important or any less thatn any other canine for any other purpose. My home companion dogs watched over me 24/7 and for a dog to watch over someone's child is no more or less than any police dog in value. BTW , a canine is not just a simple creature. Simple Minded people think in terms  of everything  as  always being simple, in this case canines .... just saying...  [ PS - our hearing , our noses , our instincts  are simple compared to a dog's .. yes there is much more to a dog and also to other animals as well  to this day that weare still trying to better understand ] . Overconfident , arrogant ,cocky , self absorbed  people think what their dog does is better than any other avenue. Don't misunderstand -- I owned LE capable dogs** , I trained for the State Police  , I worked  in Law Enforcement ,  my friends were K9 officers , but I never thought because I did that my dogs were superior to any other dog or any ody's elses dog. I trained many many dogs for different endeavors and for people from different walks of life and whether anyone wants to realize thatthere is much , musch * toma dog  , I really don't care . What you believe or not does not change the fact,  there is much to a dog that meets the eye. They are not just a simple creature. BTW they have the mental capability of a 4 year old human. 

by Hired Dog on 22 October 2019 - 08:10

Cent, once again with your colorful epithets...listen, if your dog fills some type of a psychological need, please seek help.
I have humans in my life that I love very much and care for daily that add to my happiness. I am not a loner, I have never been butt hurt by society to turn inward and look at an animal to fill some void left by humanity.

A dog that is a home companion is indeed a pet, as 99% of all dogs are pets today. Watching over the house is what a dog does because of genetics, because it feels protective of its territory.
I have raised my kids with dogs, they played with them, they loved them, as dogs. To call those dogs nothing less compared to the dog that finds a lost child missing for 2 days, to compare it to a dog that finds the hidden explosive or the psycho with the shotgun who just murdered someone is ridiculous at best.

The best relationships Cent, the most treasured ones, the strongest are forged when your butt is on the line with your partner.
If you want to compare that to something that sits on the couch all day and burps with boredom, go ahead.
Lastly, I have always found Keep It Simple Stupid the best way to operate in life, I am very big on fundamentals and cannot deal with long protracted philosophers...just saying

by Hired Dog on 22 October 2019 - 08:10

The black and red have nothing to do with loss of temperament and working ability. Its not the color, its the choice breeders made of choosing to breed the black and reds with the crappiest temperament because they were interested in looks, not working ability.
Over time, breeding these weak dogs that produced more weak dogs became the norm with the black and reds, but, it was NOT the color, it was the cognizant choice to breed the weakest of the dogs to have what you call a "showline" GSD today.


by GK1 on 22 October 2019 - 08:10

You therefore see little to no difference in that with a non-dilute. This sort of thing has nothing to do with purity. Color is also not linked to character. What could be that it occurs more often in a certain line and that it happens to be a certain predisposition. But the color itself has nothing to do with it, that is really a fairy tale.

@Black Malinois - from this translation, fair to say a grey/blue colored Mal X (however rare), could be included into a breeding program such as KNPV/police K9 without reservation, if the dog displays the character, drives, physical structure, courage etc.?


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