Old school German Shepherds - Page 6

Old School German Shepherds

I have been reading the many posts on this thread and what I see is that : That German Shepherd Dog is not the same as it was was. There seems to be no doubt about that . This holds true no matter if we talk about show line or working line for they both have changed. Even within the past 20 years both categories have changed the GSD.

Structure , that is self explanatory for all that we need to is to look at the GD in profile. That all need be done , case proved ,QED [ quod est demonstato , this has been demonstrated].

The other aspect which is equally important is what I often referred to as ' MENTALITY '. I imagine we can look at mentality as being founded on the genetic traits that govern behavior . Does not matter if one talks about working line or show line because anyone that is exceptionally knowledgable of the breed overall , that has seen and evaluated multitudes of GS over decades [ or interacts with such people ] and that has a clear understanding of the evolution of the two categories will tell you for certainty that the GS as a breed is losing or if not already in general, has lost it's mentality . With so many lines we see a whole range of both good and bad traits in the GSD , retained traits and lost traits , overly intensified and exaggerated traits some of these being normal and abnormal traits. At first we saw a split into working vs show , but now each of these have become polluted and corrupted in general . Are there great show and working line in existence.. most certainly . but as a general rule each of these avenues due to their selective breeding have greatly changed from what they originally were.. Does this apply to every GS and every line , NO .. But the GS no doubt is far from what is was 60 years ago.
So comes the arguments of this and that .. But IMOP this all stems from the fact that Mentality has drastically changed. What does mentality affect? features like stress levels , discernment, aggression , sociability etc etc. . No wonder to day we see fo much of a gradient good and bad in the GS .. So many traits.. so many changes , so many ' TYPES ' GSs !! ... IMOP.

I realize this is likely a waste, but I am rather passionate in my opinions of the working line GSD and what it should be. I am really bothered by a lot of what I am reading. Pictures speak 1000 words, so I will follow Joan's lead.

All dogs shown do bitework. Some were competition dogs (IPO). None soil my home or their crates or "fingerpaint," nor do they spin, nor are they crazy or any of the other adjectives used by posters whose mouths are larger than their breadth of experience. These are my own dogs, current and living. 

These photos are not anything exceptional and shouldn't be celebrated as such. I am not posting to say "Isn't this great?" This should be the norm. The GSD should be a versatile breed- not a watered down breed. There seems to be a misconception that in order to have a stable, versatile dog, we need to decrease drive and aggression and I don't believe that is the case. Nerves are what dictates a lot of what makes a dog a strong, stable dog, or a dangerous dog. Let's focus on character and nerves, not try to lessen drive and turn them all into pets. I think the biggest issue in BOTH lines of the GSD is character in general- strength of character has declined on the whole. I can still say that there are quite a few people "doing it right" if you know where to look. But the average dog on the street that John Q Public sees is going to likely be less of a dog than it's counterpart 40 years ago.

The lanky bicolor male with my son in the creek is 3rd generation mine. He's a grouch (a lot of you will remember Hank, the grumpy puppy) but he's a stable grouch. Very high drive (defense as well as prey) and will rise to a challenge if challenged. Otherwise, he ignores. Doesn't love other dogs but will ignore them if I say he has to. Good enough for me. He's not a breeding prospect by a long shot, but he's a dog the OP would enjoy having around, if I am reading right. Smart, healthy, sane, (if a spoiled brat ;) ).

The sable female shown at the nursing home is one of my breeding females. She isn't a therapy dog but they said she is welcome anytime because she behaved so much better than any of the visiting therapy dogs. She is a powerhouse in protection. The dog in the GirlPower harness is the same dog at the nursing home.

The bicolor on the porch in the first day of school pic is V Madox von der Emsaue, a super mentally-sound dog who is sane and level-headed in every situation. To read other posters claims, you'd look at titles and picture a junkyard dog foaming at the mouth. Unless I wiped the foam just before I snapped the photo, that's a bunch of bunk. Produces well-rounded dogs who are strong in the work and have high confidence and great nerves.

The sable in the Christmas tree shot is V Drago Uranium Zwinger...a Quando v. haus v. Hipp son, an IPO3 male trialed at a national level, a dog I admittedly can't leave with just anyone,  but a wonderful dog with family and a STABLE dog with guests. I certainly don't have to put him away when we have company- he just isn't a dog to be handled by anyone and everyone. Dominant and possesive, quite manageable, but modern dog etiquette on the part of the public has sunk to an abysmally low level and doesn't mesh well with certain personalities. Confident, not dog-aggressive, and despite nearly 6 years kenneled, does great in the house.

In the pic with three dogs in front of the fireplace, that's a senior convention. Capri (my foundation female, age 11), Skoshi (20yr old Chihuahua) and Simon (10.5yr old APBT, must be one of my fighting dogs LOL LOL) show my typical experience in keeping dogs together. Common sense- no dominant same-sex pairs. Chihuahuas are safe with any of them of either gender. They are not a threat (more of a nuisance :p ).

 

SORRY MY COMMENTS POSTED IN WEIRD ORDER INSTEAD OF UNDER THEIR RESPECTIVE PHOTOS :| 

 

Agree with HM and Centurion, too. I didn't see those posts before.

Yes, as a whole, what the public sees out and about, is worse. However, I think there are more GSDs, too. So, proportionally, while the ratio of excellent to poor might be not so wonderful, there are still a lot of really good dogs out there. I have not had a problem finding good dogs. Granted, it takes quite a few years of really conscientious study to know where to look, though.

Centurion, about your comment on mentality; I agree that there are problems within the breed where the essence of what makes a gsd a gsd, which is what you described and label mentality.

My second gsd was what I categorize as a 'great' dog...no point telling about him, because some on here will claim I'm describing rintintin. Just suffice it say that he is the yard stick I use for evaluating my all gsd today.
I have concentrated on the qualities of 'mentality' of that dog from twenty years ago, for selecting my dogs to breed.

Through the years I have  purchased puppies that were extreme. Two litter mates I wanted for 'new blood' and linebreeding furture,  I suspected might be extreme, but hoped would not be....I placed them in homes that desired the screaming, spinning prey drive leaking pups for their purposes.

I have imported a female eight week old that 'should' have been an outstanding individual...instead she was what I consider insane...take her for a ride in the truck, riding on the back seat and, without fail, she would take a huge dump on the seat where she was standing and then freak out because there was a big pile of crap and she needs to get away from it...didn't matter that it was mid day, and she was outside playing for three hours before I put her in the truck to go otown. You could set your watch on fifteen minutes she was taking a dump. That was only one goofy thing about her, there are pages I could write about the craziness, and older she got, the worse she became.

BTW, turned out, at seven months, her hips were horrible, $3500 invested, and the 'breeder' in Netherlands after seeing her exrays I sent them, said pts but never compensated me so much as one dime.

Now, back to mentality of the dogs I produce....look at the random example vid clips on page one on this thred, of the dogs bred by me.

And the good thing is, I'm not an exception, I don't think. Because the dogs I did start with fifteen years ago were selected and bred by and came from different breeders.

It's all about selection.

 

Here's Wallace ( aka Bruno) and Lexi the morning after Lexi arrived after 12 hrs in transit,@ 7 weeks old.....she did not meet Wallace nor human family,  prior to arriving to her new home.

Here is a littermate of Lexi's, Xena 7 wks old, in her new home the morning after she arrived (same 12 hrs transit as Lexi)  just meeting her new family...she is with an old man who requested a true gsd with brains, like the gsd of 'yesteryear'...at 18 months old now, that is what he brags about on Xena

YES, Joan. It's all about selection! You are not the only one doing it right, as you said- your dogs came from different breeders. Of course, everyone has to bring in outside blood from time to time and the good thing is, there are still breeders from which to do this. It does take some savvy, though, to know where to look and read between the lines when someone advertises or describes their pups.

The female you mention is a classic example of what I call "wound too tight"...a nerve issue, not a drive issue (though I think it results from selecting for drive, not nerve). Interesting that her hips were also bad...but that's another topic for another day.

Correct, Jenni, bringing in new blood is important. However, I started with dogs from different breeders fifteen years ago...in other words, I'm still using the progeny from my foundation dogs from 15 years ago. ( one male and three females; male and female from Jipo-me, female from Glitch, and female from Zelene Uzlabiny) have added one Jirkova divora female to cross those original lines with.

 

Of course, you're correct, the crapping on the seat of the teruck was a nerve issue....but as I said, this pup leaked drive; as in screaming when there's any motion any where near her.

Such as picking up my five gallon feed buckets when I'm preparing feed for my horses and SCREAMING as she bit the bottom of the bucket while it rolled down the driveway till she was totally out of her mind...put a leash on her to control her while I'm fixing the feed and she turned flips and screamed.

After a week and a half of this, I gave up and designated one bucket to her...I still have I that bucket and the bottom looks like a chain saw gothold of it....and that was with her baby teeth! 

So leaking drive is indicative of weak nerves( or insufficient nerve strength)...when a dog has not the nerve strength to control it's drives.

Let me qualify that statement and say;  not ALL 'leaking' is because of weak nerves or insufficient nerve strength...sometimes the leaking is caused deliberately by 'loading' a dog up for maximum performance during training.

I fully agree with Centurian's post. Great post.

The working line structure may not have degraded the way the show structures have, but the working line dogs too, via selective breeding for sport, have changed drastically from a temperamental perspective. Single minded breeding for prey-drive, essentially trying to create a Mali-type GSD, has not done the breed any favours.

I have always loved Joan's dogs, and the breeding philosophy she follows. And also like her strong breeding ethics. Unfortunately, dogs like Joan's are becoming less and less common. I have long wanted to get one of her dogs, but regrettably, my current geography is too far away from the US, for sourcing a dog from the US.

JOan, a friend had an American show line male that was like that female. He would destroy any water container you left in his kennel! And here she was using him for breeding...  

She also had a German show line female that would scream and fence-fight if put next to another bitch. One day, she screamed and ran the fence of her outdoor run until she collapsed. And this was with the other dog 2 runs away from her!

Oh, and she ALSO used this female for breeding. And one of the litters was with the above-mentioned male... 

There are crazy dogs in all of the different lines. It's up to us (breeders and buyers) to make sure they aren't allowed to reproduce. 

(Am using the term 'friend' rather loosely in the above paragraph...)

 

Thank you, aykaay.

Sunny, as I said and have heard from others on this forum, such as duke, gustov...it's all about 'selection'.

Just because someone spends a lot of money on a dog or pup, doesn't mean one is required to breed it.

I spent $15,000 ...that's 15k on a world renown dog, and after three litters from three totally different type females, and giving away 90 % of the pups....he was retired and all outside requests to use his services were declined by me. ( I did not keep anything from him to use in my breeding program.)
Not to say that there were not some exceptional pups in those litters, because there were. But, unfortunately, the the pups with exceptional qualities were indeed the exception and not the norm.

Star's breeder imported the son of a very famous German sieger. I am sure he paid BIG bucks for this dog.

He only used him twice for breeding, once for a litter with one of his females, and once for an outside breeding. He was so unhappy with what he saw that he never used him again, and eventually offered him for free (at the age of 9) on a non-breeding contract to dog people he trusted to honour that contract.