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by Centurian on 22 November 2017 - 14:11

Absolutely correct ..

You can create mental images , expectations , conditon the dog even before you start to move away from the dog. You can , even next to the dog vary your positions [ to the left , to the right , behind, over the dog. ] on a short leash . In that way even before you leave , start go away from the dog..... In my verbiage.. you create the mental picture , an expectation within the dogs mind , a conditioning , that your position can and will be variable and that the dog can go on to do what it needs to do ... Later as you mover away .. you can translate that moving away in variable angles from your dog eventually. That is to say , my dog will work no mater where I am on the training field releative to it. I do this also when the dog has learned to out into the bite work - the end result is I can be 50 yards away and almost whisper out and it will. Same with disciplining a dog. I place into the dog's mind early in life , even at 20 paces away I can and I will discipline you . You may be off leash but my authority can go a long way. [ but that is a different topic ]

So .. I like an idea very very much that I think you had posted earlier.

In my enunciating I say : " the dog has ALL the ANSWERS " .. if we only ask the right questions. And is what I say in my mind.... How do I ay this to my dog and how do I set the dog up to peform what I want it to in order to learn , EXACTLY what I teach. .
susie

by susie on 22 November 2017 - 17:11

Just to get this interesting topic going -
where do you see the initial difference between "disciplining a dog" and "capping drive" ?

I presuppose the dog knows about "correct" behavior in both tasks, otherwise we wouldn´t talk about training, but about stupidity...

by Centurian on 22 November 2017 - 20:11

Susie .... are you directing this distinction to me ?

Capping the drive ..... this expression is in refernce to a single behavior that has gone beyong the point that it should have. For example , the stand in motion. Susie , you know that .. so I wpon't describe the stand in motion routine . When you ask the dog to stand , provided you have taught nthis correctly to the dog and the dog knows/understand the coorect execution of that request , the dog should immediately , then immediately , the precise exact moment the dog hears that reqwuest , he should lock up , freeze , immediately , not even 1 step more lock up and freeze. So in an IPO rotine and you do the stand in motion , upon hearing the fequest to stand as you both are moving, and the dog goes 1 ffot more from the original place you gave the request, then we would say : that one has to cap the drive of the dog. In other wordfs the dog has to learn the behavior has an end point. In this case to stop . The dog went beyond in the behavior, further than it should have.

When a dog chooses one behavior over another when told to do another , then we discipline . Discipline is a form of efforcement and a communication of your expectations . An infraction has taken place. When we teach a dog there are rules , one of which is to do what it is told. When you ask the dog to heel , and that is an exact potion ofr movement, pending how it is taught tothe dog , but the dog chooses to walk in another postion or walk differently , faster than you . Technically those are two different behaviors. They are two different places . I casual walk in front is not the same as a dog heeling. Again they are two different scenarios.[ and dogs do, do place association - ] Compared to a dog that does not out. The dog was on the bite , still is on the bite .. the act of bitingis the same , 1 behavior extended, It just has continued , went on the point it should have stopped. If you ask a dog on a walk and it goes and bothers with it , that requires discipline .

Are there grey areas .. I suppose so .. But if your dog is doing something and continues , that is where the term "capping the drive" comes into play. There is also a distinction between a dog not able to control it's impulses and a dog exhibiting dire disobedience. Dire disobedience requires discipline , enforcement . A dog dog contimuing to do something beacuse it either was not taught correctly or can't control itself , needs in that ling , to have it's behavior capped. The dog is not capped .. the behavior is readjusted , therefore , capped. Like a bollte spuing .. you cap a bottle to contain the water. In likeness , you cap a behavior to contain it from overflowing - but you have to trach the dog , that just does not happen.

That is my take .. unless someone can correct that thought.
susie

by susie on 22 November 2017 - 21:11

Now I am confused-

earlier on ( by using the same example ) you said:
"This is what I am trying to have the reader understand... the concept of "capping drive" is faulty because it is the teaching that is faulty."

Now you say: "provided you have taught this correctly"...
" that one has to cap the drive of the dog. In other wordfs the dog has to learn the behavior has an end point. In this case to stop . The dog went beyond in the behavior, further than it should have."

So although the teaching hasn't been "faulty" it sometimes may be necessary to "cap" ?

When my young dog learned to "out" perfectly, but one day I am working with a very big, strong helper my dog never saw before, and it doesn' t out, but tries to fight even harder - do I cap the drive that kicked in, or do I discipline, because my well trained dog disobeyed?

I do have problems to see the difference - even in case my well trained dog is not willing to come when called, although it's a discipline problem I have to cap drives to the same time, f.e. hunt drive.

Guess, this area is dark grey...

by Centurian on 23 November 2017 - 00:11

I am sorry .. I perhaps haven't made this clear.

I will share with you how I teach my dog via short explanation.

When ever I teach a dog a behavior , I shape that behavior. I assume you know there are different ways to shape behavior. But also in the general realm of teaching my GS, they are taught that a behavior has a beginning and an end. I teach this to pet owners . You have to communicate the exercise begins and let the dog know when it is over. After the behavior is shaped THEN I add the cue . They learn to associate , pair the cue with the behavior. Similarly after i teach , sometimes during the process of shaping the behavior , included is the cue, signal that the behavior ends. The cue to start is exactly clear and so the cue that the behavior ends also is crystal clear. They are released from responsibility at the end of the behavor , and that means at the beginning  the responsibility is placed onto them . As I wrote , In IPO , when the dog does not stop the behavior they say . I have to  'cap the drive'. That is because there is more than just saying " oh the behavior is over ". Dogs do things for reasons and with purposeness. Part of the teaching is giving the dog a reason to do the behavior and also a reason/purpose  to cease the behavior when cued. If the dog decides that it wants to do somethng it  will and if it decides to stop  and  to end a behavior it will.  It isournesponsibilitynthat nthendoghavemthe correct motivation , purposethat flfills his needs. If we do that ,  then  the same way it decides to undertake a behavior , the dog will gladly , willing , happily cease doing the behavior and therfore  no need for capping a behavior that continues past the cue to stop.  No need to have to control the expression of that behavior, fulfilling the dog's needs , goals and puposes helps create self control  as the behavior continues. I hope novices understand this. 

Part of teaching is generalizing too , you know that . For new comers,   a sit in your house is not the same sit at the grocery store , in the head of the dog  , until that in the grocery store. And that also applies to . other places .  The dog  understands that the cue to do that behavior is operational any time , anywhere and any place and understand ' sit'.  If I tell my dog to bite , it is to bite an stay on the bite until I say otherwise . I can release the dog from the responsibilty of biting by telling  it to do something else or giving it another  bite. If  I have generalized this out and proofed the behavior , and the dog does not out when I told it to do so ,  that is plain disobedience . , then I discipline it.    What i see most often is : what people think they have taught the dog is not what the dog has learned. And what the dog has learned many times is not what was supposed to be taught. A big situation I see , even amoung the profesionals is ,    dearly misinterpreting a mistake by the dog as disobedience . Again from the difference between the teaching and the learning, the dog gets punished. 
If my dogs make a mistake , I often do nothing. If I know , that they know , and they blow me off , then they will be dscilplined. Sometimes that is with a word , a tap on the back , to out right earthshaking response by me.  Capping.. that need to cap behavior is because the dog has not learned proper outing . What a sound  dog has learned is that it's main aim is to bite , and bite like hell. It does not have a clear understanding , does not have an equally clear purpose to out as it does to bite. and that stems from not having taught the dog that.   You see how fast a dog will out something if that dog is darn hungry and realizes that dinner bowl will never hit the floor until it outs. When outing becomes in the dog's head as important as biting , believe me .. that dog will out. 

Your dog not coming when called. Does it not come only when it scents and animal? That is it comes to you normally but not when it is motivated to hunt ? Because they are two different contexts. If a dog does not come to you if it saw a rabbit... that is not entirely " the dog won't come to me when called". That is what i am talking about when I discuss the teaching. The dog was not taught , or properly taught not to hunt......this not a caping problem a, a teaching problem. After teaching your dog full not to hunt and it does , then it becomes a disciplinary issue because did not tell the dog to hunt and furthermoren ou most likey, one way or anothert you told the dog dog to leave it or to stop and it did not obey you. .So teach and discipline .
Let me be long winded here. : I teach an 8 week pup 2 things. 1. if the pup is 10 feet from me I say nothing, and the minute that dog turns and starts to move toward me, The timing is critical , I interact with it ,maybe cluck my tongue, and the minute it comes to me I interact with it.. I didnt say feed it right away- I interact with it , then momentarily , give it a treat. the lesson : the pupy deciding to come to me on it's own accord , finds where it's interest lies . It is in it's interest to come to me. 2. on other occassions if the puppy is two inches from me I will say'hier' and click and treat. What I am exactly teaching and the pup is learning tha t 'heir' is 6 inches presenting in front of me. [ exact lesson , clear]. When I was a rookie , I learned you call your dog , wjo was 6 feet in front of you and then you so call forward the dog straight to me . But... that presents problems. I was taught by a human and thought like a human. I didn't know dogs were 'context specific' learners meaning thatnthey learn something specific to a specific circumstance. That meant the dog coming me straight , from 6 feet diagonally left was differnent in the dog's schema, mind, than straight inward. A different picture to the dog. Same if the dog was 6 feet diagonally right . They are all different pictures in the dog's head. those are in reality of the dog 3 entirely different recalls. Teaching a dog /come 6 inches in front means one and only one thing to the dog. In order to be in that exact position , there is only 1 option , 1 postion . I never taught movement , I teach position . Same with heeling , Heeling is not taught as an act of moving , rather being and maintaining a position. If I move the only way the dog can maintain the poisition is to move with me.
So having explained that , when you call your dog to come to you in one context it is not the same as a whole different context /circumstance. Calling your dog away from a fire hydrant, is not the same as calling your dog when it hits upon an animal.These are different in the dog's mind and therefore like the different angles of approaching you in the recall , so does the Come/ Hier have to be taught with animals. And more over , if you teach a dog not to hunt deer , you have to also teach it seperately not to hunt bear, seprately not to hunt cats and so on and on ... This is why in IPO I teach from day 1 to teach the dog on the most contaminated track that I can , deer , people , other dogs and so on. One tool for teaching your dog not to chase animals would be electronic collar. One very very big pitfalls that you really have to know what you are doing. Aside what people have written in this thread .. DOGS DO THINK , and they can figure out real fast , collar on vs collar off , from where the current originates from , and other things such as always always check the device before use. work with someone in the know if you use e collar.

The out and your dog .... this is harder than discussing in genral , because you say the dog learned to out perfectly when it was young. There are variables here. I don't know how you taught the dog what you taught the dog , what the dog indeed lerned,  I don't know if from the beginning to the present you continued to work the dog.  I don't know if your dog only outed for you and /or if the dog was worked by other people and outed. A big one here, I don't know how the helper worked the dog. In Sc/IPO if the sleeve even so slightly moves , or the helper worked the dog incorrectly  and then the dog is correct for not outing. We teach in Ring Sports, out is out,  no matter what the helper is doing , moving , laughing .. doesn't matter. Again , we purposely teach [ a different circumstance and context now from the helper locking up / perfectly frozen] movemnt still requires an out. As a rookie , working Sch I had to be careful how I even breathed , same with State Police dogs, , one little movment that involved heavy inhaling /exhaling breathing, caused  the dogto correctly bite. The dog was right to bite or stay engaged.


So I say if your dog has sound temeprament and knows how to out anywhere , anytime , anyplace and with anyone , and the helper did correct helper work , the dog ouin all other times , then this is a disciplinary situation. Remember this is a qualified reply because I can't see the dog , you and the helper .

yogidog

by yogidog on 23 November 2017 - 07:11

I roughly explained this back in page 3 and said no more because I could come the topic going here. Really enjoying this topic no bitching no name calling just a real dog discussion weather u agree or disagree with the points put across.

susie

by susie on 23 November 2017 - 09:11

When you teach the "hier" command accordingly, the location of the dog shouldn´t matter, because the final meaning for the dog, at least in my mind, should be: dog at handler ( in IPO position: sitting in front of handler ). That said the dog knows what to do no matter where it is.
I don´t think different angles / distances / not even distractions do change this meaning for the dog, it knows the command, it knows what to do.
At this point we are back at "drives" - the bigger the distraction ( for every dog different ) the more difficult for the dog to obey because of genetic drives. That´s why a good handler teaches the same command under x different distractions, not because the command is different, but the environmental influence on the dog.
So in case the well trained dog does not listen ( and there will be situations even the best trained dog won´t listen ) do you "discipline" for disobeying or do you "cap drives" ?
Practically in both cases you do the same.
What I want to point out is, that for a dog it´s always about drives and instincts.
The dog does not disobey because it thinks "today I don´t want to listen", it disobeys because the distraction is bigger than the will to show learned behavior, and distractions ( and their influence on single dogs ) are mainly based on genetic drives.
When you recall a dog in the woods it´s no problem for the dog with minor hunt drive, but may be a problem for a dog with pronounced hunt drive.
When you "out" a dog from a strong helper it´s no problem for a dog with minor aggression, whereas for the dog with major aggression it may be a problem.

The e-collar is an interesting example. A lot of dogs realise ( when trained wrong ) when the collar is off or if the handler is using a dummy. But even this "thinking process" is based on drives.
The medium or low driven dog won´t even need an e-collar, because when trained well it will listen ( for this dog distractions are lower in quality than the will to show the learned behavior ).

The high driven dog will try to follow it´s drives, be it deer, cat, or anything else. The will to follow its drives although it may hurt is very pronounced, this dog will "try" again, and it will realize that there is a difference between a dummy and the e-collar ( learning by doing ), conditioning itself.
Although pretty smart still based on drives.

by Centurian on 23 November 2017 - 12:11

No Susie No you are absolutely incorrect.

You are thinking as a human and not as an animal. You my think angles and place etc don't make a difference .. you can disagree all you want , that is ok . But facts no matter what we think , are facts. An animal thinks the way it thinks ... For the readers Teaching a dog to sit : if you teach a position e.g sit in front , that is a precise , exact picture in the dog's mind, an absolute. No matter what , that exact position means to the dog one thing and only part from everything else . However if you teach a dog to sit in front of you by an act of having to come to you. That act is different. The act itself is not an absolute , each act [ each direction in and of itself ] is different . Each route travelled is different and it is not the same mental picture in the dog's mind . Movement and satic positions are entirely diffent phenomena . That is movement and the moving towards from striaght to you , from , right , from left are all different movements ... they are not exact , and the is different to the dog in it's mind. If that were not the case , then the very very first time you do a sit in motion, you would not have to tea h itas a separate exercise. Right after teaching the sit , the theoretically would perform that sit in motion with exact precision. But that is not the case .. a sit in motion has to be taught. Same example : if you teach a dog to sit , to sand , to platz, they are different, yes ? and so it if you teach a sit from a stand vs a sit from a down. To change from one position to another is a learned experience , the changing , the movement makes them different in the dog's mind.

I had a friend teaching his dog to jump a hurdle .. outside the dog umped. On a rainy day , whe brought the hurdle inside. pla ed the dog in front of the hurdle the same as he did outside. The dog refused to jump. He was frustrated. He couldn't understand why in the world the dog would not jump over it. I said to him , dogs are specific context learned. BTW Susie .. that is why we have to teach a dog to generalize and we proof dogs. They are context specific learners . I explained my : the dog sees the jump differently now. Even though the jump was 15 feet from the wall , I said to my friend , go to where the dog is. What does the dog see, He said the jump. I said NO , he does not see the jump. What the dog sees now is a jump with a wall 15 feet away. He never saw that before , this is new in the dog's head. I told him , pull the jump to the middle ofthe 30 X 30 foot room and jump the dog again. He replaced the hurdle and the dog in front..one word the dog weas up and over and then back when told to .

I want the readers to understand... What you think you are teaching and what the dog is learning often are two entirely different things. A dog not performing isn't always out right disobedience. To  correct that dog for not jumping in a light manner is cruel . He was asking the dog to do something that it did not learn or was not taught [ correctly]. Now .. some dogs , ok the wall may not be an issue. But what is important is not what you are thinking but what the animal is thinking and feeling. How you teach a dog and what you teach a dog , is critical ...

Susie .. i think you like to argue.. for a while I read your posts.. I really really don't know if you like to stir the pot or you really don't unerstand what you think you do. Not being mean.. but really susie. The minute you put a distraction into an exercise, that is different exercise to an animsl , not to a human but it is to an animal. That is why we have to teach the task with distraction and then proof. We asume a dog generalizes to eveything once something is leanred .. they don't. We think that they are percieving and asimilating information thr way we do - they don't ! Cats are great mimmickers and generalizers , dogs are very very very poor mimickers and generalizers, they are very bad at that.. This is major reason why the best trained dog , does things when we think it shouldn't do at times. Again.. this relates back to the teaching and learning. As I have written , there are times a child , a dog , will protest , challenge and simply choose not to comply.

No , with animals behaving is not entriely about instincts. Are they more instinctive than us ,YES- we are more cerebral . . But Susie with all the experience that you claim to have.. how can you not see that what the dog does is based upon genetics and as well learned behavior/experience- BOTH ... If what you say is true , heavens a tiger trainer wouldn't stand a chance to teach it because by nature and intinct they are man eaters. Holy Moley .. who in the world ever taught you about animals and specifically dogs ?

 I had a dog that would kill any other dog. I insert here , that teaching involves either positve reinforcement/input or negative reinforcement /input. Also dogs are lving creatures , not robot computers. Having made those points .       I taught my GS correctly , with absolute clear communication and precisely to leaver dogs alone when I say "leave it".  By the time I got the teaching him.. he didn't even want to think about aggressing against another dog . The mental picture was ingrained and he know where his best interest was.  So , he could control himslef and  the behavior if it did start , could easily be ended by me saying 'leave it " . The behavior ended . His instincts did not perpetuate that beahvior and it did ot need to be so called 'capped'.  Are people and dogs perfect , no . But I will assure you .. if I thought he would even look at a dog , I said " leave it " and there was no overuling instinct on his part.. He was galdly , willingly , desiring to leave a dog alone.  If he saw a dog and I said 'hier" , his insticts did not over ride my request and immdeiately , I mean immediately he started to come to me.

       Obedience Susie .. I wll define for you [ andfor the readers]. OBEDIENCE [ different than manners] is that act of doing what is asked and upon hearing that request the dog immediately * without any other thought entering the dog's mind** , willingly and gladly acknowledges and accomplishes that request / performs. Of course , if we don't teach correctly , we an't expect the dog to perform correctly. If the dog does not channel it's enrgies , have the motive and thiughts qwe want , that is our fulat for not teaching the dog otherwise. Not to mention , if you call your dog off a hunt andthe dog does not lsten , then why in the sorld is the dog off leash , not physically somehow in yourcontrol to begin with. THAYT is another entirely diferent issue, yet still , we are at fault. Why blame the dog for that too. 

Susie you told me that I don't like hard dogs.... I never even responded to that . the fact of the matter is I like GS of all bents.. But I love to work the higher aggression and harder dogs. WHY , because the more the instinct and the natural genetics for the dog to do protection work the easier , so much easier , it is to teach that dog and for me to work with it's motivation. I had a 1 year old GS who did police capability work. The officers at the Academy marvelled at him. The more I know what the dog needs and wants,in his case to bite , the so much easier it is to teach him what brings him to biting. So much easier to teach and out also  to these type of dogs that it is not even a chore . And he Loved to out because he was always looking for that opportunity to bite , over and over again. Furthemore , his out was literally on a whisper. You foolish IPO people , yelling , screaming AUUUUSSSS with 200 decibels. The dog hears 10 X better than we do. Goodness gracious , I had to simply in a soft voice say "AUS" and immedeitately , sharply could out a dog that was so high in motivation ..Goodness , some of you people ...


  What I will add :  I write with all things being equal , sort to speak . Aggression , yes there is normal good high aggression and there is other than that. However this is where it is hard to write because emphatically I state that there is a point , a theshold of a behavior such that the behavior is out of norm. A GS that has way to  ,to,  to high aggresion , and there is no way to put this into verse, has bad, very bad , aggression . This dog can be labelled as  over aggressive genetically .. That is unsoundness .. and on that note .. those dogs are out of the normal , temperament ...   unsound nutcases. I have seen many GS bred with poor mentality.Mnay , and many in important roles and positions , because , some professionals either don't understand aggression or simply don't care . That is a whole different conversation . That is like dealing with a person , whois a nutcase and expecting him to act and behave like everybody else in ther course of everyday life. In a conversation it is not frair or realistic to compare a normal , well bred and sound temperament dog with good breeding and menatlity to those that aren't. That is another conversation. So Susie , don't mix apples and oranges in a conversation counfusing issues. 


Anyway .. Susie at least you gave to me opportunity to share thoughts with thre readers , who will do as they will after reading my comments. On that note good luck and happy training ....

susie

by susie on 23 November 2017 - 15:11

No, I "really really" don´t like to stir the pot.

"But Susie with all the experience that you claim to have.. how can you not see that what the dog does is based upon genetics and as well learned behavior/experience- BOTH ... If what you say is true , heavens a tiger trainer wouldn't stand a chance to teach it because by nature and intinct they are man eaters. Holy Moley .. who in the world ever taught you about animals and specifically dogs ?"

"Not being mean" .. but really centurian, when you really read my posts for a while, you should be aware that I am a firm believer of nature and nurture -

genetics
environment
training
experiences
=
the dog in front of you

I am not stupid, and as a member of this board you are not my teacher, but someone I communicate with, and try to understand. In case I think different this forum allows me to write about my thoughts and beliefs, just as you do.
I only always try to stay polite and friendly, even if this is difficult after "spitting in the wind", several "reallys", a mole, and some more. Guess, I shouldn´t have said "esotheric thoughts", but that´s my impression out of your posts.

This is a dog forum, we are here to talk about our experiences, our beliefs, our knowledge...
and out of my experience the behavior of a dog first and foremost is
drive, instinct, temperament related,
influenced by training and environment.
The sum of all of this most often is very complex, and because of that a lot of handlers and trainers do fail on a regular basis.

Maybe I think too simple, whereas you think too complex.
Most often the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Just for the record - I don´t tend to "yell" - not at my dogs, not at my child. I tend to educate them...and I don´t drink Coke...

by Centurian on 23 November 2017 - 17:11

Susie ..

I do not intend to be belittling to you . However , many of your posts seem to be challenging and seem to have a condescending overtone. Many comments that you write , simply are not true. My apologies , in that I don't exactly know how to take your posts. Some are quite constructive, but every now and then you throw in something that is not accurate. When I bring to light a very accurate and sound way of understanding the dog , fundamental principle ansd concepts , I am lost to understand when someone is obstinate. From your posts , you imply by the way you phrase your comment, that what I write is not correct . I never ever ever say or write about a topic , open my mouth , unless I know , not simply from myself but from many other people and many other sources. I am asking not that anyone go to my drumbeat , but when I explain something with sound rationale and some one attempts do invalidate that ..What can I say .

I don't tuthfully , know what to think . I don't know if they are baiting me, or if they truly don't grasp what I am explaining, or they want to simply think what they want to think and they aren't receptive to anything new, which in that case is fine with me. Most of all , when I comment my goal is to share what has been taught to me , what has made me successful to naone interested in reading the post. Yes you are entitled to opinion .. but that is ther kicker .. What I often write is not subjective ,or an  opinion. What I write about I substantiate. As when I described what was going on in BE's video that peol pe misinterpreted. Even Yogi , who I respect, stated too that the dog was anticipating. Someone wants to disagree, that is ok , but when someone debates something that is fundamental , factual over and over , over and over , rejects explanation .. I don't know what to think . Myself , through 30 + years I welcomed when someone gave me new ideas , shared something different , provided it was correct . opinion when I am talking factual ..I don't think that is fair to the other general readers. I would welcome you to give information , which at times you do , as I wrote some of your posts are insightful to others and constructive. I nwould love to have learned something from you . but to reiterate , when you now and then , not only with me , but also with some very very very experienced other posters on the PDM , cvhallenge them when they have made sound conceptual commentaries.. well , perhaps I am not the only oster that feels the same .. not knowing what to make by some of your comments... and for that .. I am sorry . As I wrote , good luck with training aand wish you hapiness with your dog[s].  

     PS , You have no notion of any of my credentials and accomplishments in my life relating  to people , canines and animals. And at times ontificating with peole on this PDB makes feel like I waste my time here. 



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