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by GK1 on 28 October 2019 - 11:10
ValK - what are the sufficient physical attributes in your view a protection dog should have? Are you referring to weight/height, conformation, breed/bloodlines? Any visual examples would be helpful to the discussion.
by Centurian on 28 October 2019 - 11:10
A little late posting from earlier comment. Hired hand , your post about : why we do not see manyb confrontations from people encountering the dogs is insightful . Yes !! - I agree .
So I bring up the notion : the psychology of people , the average person not high in canine knowledge that is , when involved , is so very different and changes dramatically when facing a human . So dramatically , and I think most of the posters would agree with mere , that the whole mindset and resulting actions of a person changes with just the sighting of a GS .
As a 10 year old boy found this phenomena : People treated me very very different on the city streets with my GS compared to when I did not have a GS . Later in adult life , the same was true too. What I have found with certain breeds is that they are stereotyped and although people may not know dogs or even like dogs , they dam well have a deep seated respect for those dogs ! Even people that would have flipped and attitude with me , would not even turned an eye the wrong way when I had my GS . Preconcieved notions can realy affect our perceptions of reality . How many times we all walked down the street and we someone cross the street to walk by us , simply because we walked a [GS ] dog ? So , is it surprising that what your wrote about the lack of confrontation any surprise ? To me , NO .
In my area after the wave of the Mals being used in LE , there was the perception and thinking that the officers wanted to switch more to the GS again . Becuase the feeling was , whether true or not , but there was the notion , that the criminals , sometimes even inmates ,did not take the upcoming popular breed of mailinois as seriuosly as the GS . The Mals , for some reason , in the mind of the criminal did not project itself to be intimidating. Now for the record - this is not a broad generalized statement across the board. I wrote in my area this for a while seemed to be a concern and try to realize , the mals for a while were not all that well known a breed. So , a blue dog ... a wonder if many street epople having come to know the Mal , thinks that is laughable . I don't know .. couldn't say one way or the other , but we have to realize that people act according to what they are thinking and feeling . Hired .. nice comment .. that is why you make me smile by your thought , as I think of one of my favorite expressions : " talk to the paw " :-) .
Apple , I like that you hold ptedaroyn instincts and the predatory behaviors as very valuable assets in t he canine. Yes They can be very very powerful assets and are very very necessary in every dog . Ying and Yang prey and defense both arre equally a contribution . So think also of this thought : what good is to defend , if you do not have the motivation to capture and posses. Inother words to defend somewthing you would have ot have wanted it in the forst place , in one manner or another. E.g. if you do not want territoy , why nwould you defend it , if you do not want to preservere and want to gain and keep yourself , why preserve fight to preserve yourself. An animal that best survives has both insticts , to prey upon and to defend. Apple mnay many times predaory behaviors and instincts are very very very powerful , misunderstood by many and are as valuable as those based in defense IMOp . I enjoy your commentaryies about prey .
It is hard to debate what you wrote that we don not see much fighting and confrontations with dogs in certain situations ...
So I bring up the notion : the psychology of people , the average person not high in canine knowledge that is , when involved , is so very different and changes dramatically when facing a human . So dramatically , and I think most of the posters would agree with mere , that the whole mindset and resulting actions of a person changes with just the sighting of a GS .
As a 10 year old boy found this phenomena : People treated me very very different on the city streets with my GS compared to when I did not have a GS . Later in adult life , the same was true too. What I have found with certain breeds is that they are stereotyped and although people may not know dogs or even like dogs , they dam well have a deep seated respect for those dogs ! Even people that would have flipped and attitude with me , would not even turned an eye the wrong way when I had my GS . Preconcieved notions can realy affect our perceptions of reality . How many times we all walked down the street and we someone cross the street to walk by us , simply because we walked a [GS ] dog ? So , is it surprising that what your wrote about the lack of confrontation any surprise ? To me , NO .
In my area after the wave of the Mals being used in LE , there was the perception and thinking that the officers wanted to switch more to the GS again . Becuase the feeling was , whether true or not , but there was the notion , that the criminals , sometimes even inmates ,did not take the upcoming popular breed of mailinois as seriuosly as the GS . The Mals , for some reason , in the mind of the criminal did not project itself to be intimidating. Now for the record - this is not a broad generalized statement across the board. I wrote in my area this for a while seemed to be a concern and try to realize , the mals for a while were not all that well known a breed. So , a blue dog ... a wonder if many street epople having come to know the Mal , thinks that is laughable . I don't know .. couldn't say one way or the other , but we have to realize that people act according to what they are thinking and feeling . Hired .. nice comment .. that is why you make me smile by your thought , as I think of one of my favorite expressions : " talk to the paw " :-) .
Apple , I like that you hold ptedaroyn instincts and the predatory behaviors as very valuable assets in t he canine. Yes They can be very very powerful assets and are very very necessary in every dog . Ying and Yang prey and defense both arre equally a contribution . So think also of this thought : what good is to defend , if you do not have the motivation to capture and posses. Inother words to defend somewthing you would have ot have wanted it in the forst place , in one manner or another. E.g. if you do not want territoy , why nwould you defend it , if you do not want to preservere and want to gain and keep yourself , why preserve fight to preserve yourself. An animal that best survives has both insticts , to prey upon and to defend. Apple mnay many times predaory behaviors and instincts are very very very powerful , misunderstood by many and are as valuable as those based in defense IMOp . I enjoy your commentaryies about prey .
It is hard to debate what you wrote that we don not see much fighting and confrontations with dogs in certain situations ...
by GK1 on 28 October 2019 - 12:10
apple, fair enough but what does the X mean beside ‘cross’? That the KNPV may have infused their lines with non-shepherd breeds in the past, thus the dog is not 100% Mal/Dutch but technically is a mixed/cross breed? Or is the cross/X only to delineate the variants: Mal (fawn); Dutch (brindle)?
The shark analogy is interesting. Granted my female Mal (mainly Dutch and Czech lines) probably doesn’t weigh more than 50lbs with a full belly and wet, nor has she had the taste of human tissue - but her entry speed and committment, bite force and prey shaking impresses my decoy friend who is accustomed to taking hits from heavier male dogs. I would never try to train this bite dynamic out of her.
by yogidog on 28 October 2019 - 12:10
Cent you are right when compareing the gs and Mali. I was told by a prision guard that when a Mali was on the landing it did not command the same respect as a gs. Not to say the Mali would not be able to handle it self it was more to do with familiarity and representation
by apple on 28 October 2019 - 12:10
GK1,
The cross means the dogs are not pure bred having outcrossed to other breeds and are not sanctioned as a breed by a registry and you won't get an official pedigree from a registry. In other words, they have no papers. Calling an X that is fawn a Mal and a brindle a DS is just a practice that has evolved. Technically a Mal X is not actually a Malinois and a DS X is not a DS. There are pure bred, FCI recognized Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that have official pedigrees and papers from FCI recognized registries. Typically, they are not nearly as strong. It goes back to pure bred dogs being bred toward a physical standard that eliminates strong, but not consistent with the standard dogs, being eliminated from the gene pool, as well as not being outcrosses to bring in other traits that strengthen the X's.
The cross means the dogs are not pure bred having outcrossed to other breeds and are not sanctioned as a breed by a registry and you won't get an official pedigree from a registry. In other words, they have no papers. Calling an X that is fawn a Mal and a brindle a DS is just a practice that has evolved. Technically a Mal X is not actually a Malinois and a DS X is not a DS. There are pure bred, FCI recognized Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that have official pedigrees and papers from FCI recognized registries. Typically, they are not nearly as strong. It goes back to pure bred dogs being bred toward a physical standard that eliminates strong, but not consistent with the standard dogs, being eliminated from the gene pool, as well as not being outcrosses to bring in other traits that strengthen the X's.
by apple on 28 October 2019 - 12:10
yogidog,
I don't think the science supports the notion that diluting color leads to the dilution of temperament, health etc. in the GSD. Apparently the situation is different in some other breeds. For example, white in GSDs isn't correlated with things like deafness as in other breeds. Actually, white in GSDs isn't actually a dilution. The white recessive gene that causes white coats in GSDs masks the dog's color rather than being the result of fading. Blue and liver GSDs don't seem to be linked to biological problems. I think things like white coats and light eyes in the GSD are related to other more practical issues. For example, with the GSD originally being a herding dog, you would want it to stand out from the white sheep to alert predators. Police uniforms typically are dark and shedding white hairs show up more. Dark eyes are more attractive.
I don't think the science supports the notion that diluting color leads to the dilution of temperament, health etc. in the GSD. Apparently the situation is different in some other breeds. For example, white in GSDs isn't correlated with things like deafness as in other breeds. Actually, white in GSDs isn't actually a dilution. The white recessive gene that causes white coats in GSDs masks the dog's color rather than being the result of fading. Blue and liver GSDs don't seem to be linked to biological problems. I think things like white coats and light eyes in the GSD are related to other more practical issues. For example, with the GSD originally being a herding dog, you would want it to stand out from the white sheep to alert predators. Police uniforms typically are dark and shedding white hairs show up more. Dark eyes are more attractive.
by yogidog on 28 October 2019 - 13:10
Apple
I was say if you start diluting anything it leads to something else not that scientific fact it a human fact. Always want to create something new that they think is better. We take from one thing and add a little of something. Weather it is colour of coat eyes weight high head. That is all I meant
I was say if you start diluting anything it leads to something else not that scientific fact it a human fact. Always want to create something new that they think is better. We take from one thing and add a little of something. Weather it is colour of coat eyes weight high head. That is all I meant
by apple on 28 October 2019 - 13:10
Like someone already said, there are enough good dogs that don't have dilute traits to choose from.
by yogidog on 28 October 2019 - 14:10
That you really believe. And even so standard is everything imo. No matter what the breed
by emoryg on 28 October 2019 - 14:10
A couple things from my experience:
A dog with good size is a good thing to have when tasked with physically apprehending a suspect.
The police dog has an enormous ability to intimidate. The aggressive displays from the dog are most likely the only means of force that will need to be applied to effect an arrest. The ability to put a suspect into avoidance behavior and submit is influenced by many factors. When interviewing the suspects who have been located by the police dog and surrendered without incident, I do not recall size of the dog ever being mentioned. Bark and teeth were probably the things I heard most as it relates to the dog. There's a lot more than just the dog's presence that will encourage the suspect to surrender.
If properly conducted, the stakeout can be used to identify dogs who perceive a person as a threat, and identify which dogs who do not.
Pigmentation of the eyes and nose should holder greater value than the coat.
A dog with good size is a good thing to have when tasked with physically apprehending a suspect.
The police dog has an enormous ability to intimidate. The aggressive displays from the dog are most likely the only means of force that will need to be applied to effect an arrest. The ability to put a suspect into avoidance behavior and submit is influenced by many factors. When interviewing the suspects who have been located by the police dog and surrendered without incident, I do not recall size of the dog ever being mentioned. Bark and teeth were probably the things I heard most as it relates to the dog. There's a lot more than just the dog's presence that will encourage the suspect to surrender.
If properly conducted, the stakeout can be used to identify dogs who perceive a person as a threat, and identify which dogs who do not.
Pigmentation of the eyes and nose should holder greater value than the coat.
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