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by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 05:05
hips (to check for ? dislocation from the socket and/or soft
tissue laxity) sometimes managed to unseat a femoral head !
To the extent that in latter years she refused to allow any vet
to do this to any of her pups. Don't know whether there was
anything in it; theoretically, as Les Pauling said above, this
shouldn't be about to do any harm.
I hope, jagger42, that it is just a bit of soft tissue damage and
that she stops "running funny" in a few days !
by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 06:05
Bubba, re "incomplete inheritance / presentation", you may be interested in this: Having discussed early attempts by researchers (Grounds, Shalles, Snavely, Abbott and others) to pin HD to first a simple autosomal recessive, then a dominant with 'irregular recessives', and then Burns & Fraser's 'incomplete penetrance', (1966), " Genetics of the Dog " (page 149 in my copy) goes on to say: "However there is considerable evidence accumulating now to suggest very clearly that HD is controlled by several genes and that it must be considered a polygenic
character with visible expression being determined by a
combination of genetic and environmental factors.
This is very clearly shown in the data compiled in Table
29 ... (which) refer to various countries with differing
standards as to what constitutes 'normality', so that
comparison over the various papers is difficult.
Nonetheless it is apparent that dysplastic stock can
occur in any kind of mating but that the better the
parental status for hip structure the better, on average,
will be their progeny. This is typical of a polygenic
character in which there are gentic and environmental
components involved.
It is generally accepted by most workers involved
that HD is a polygenic trait. It should therefore
have a heretibility."
The author, Malcolm B. Willis, wrote this in 1989.
Dr Willis was Senior Lecturer in Animal Breeding
& Genetics at the University of Newcastle (UK).
He was also a GSD owner, breeder and judge.
Okay he still didn't have an identifiying letter code
for the genes involved, and this was pre- modern
genome mapping, but it is more up to date than
the "incomplete inheritance" theory ...
by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 11:05
In the case of HD and most conditions correlation does not prove causation ... polygenetic is correlation speak ... everything is either polygenetic or it is not and science uses polygenetic to explain the unknown. If some disease or trait is very simple and only involves a few genes with some predictability it is not polygenetic otherwise it is polygenetic using the simplistic Mendelian genetics of those such as Willis. Willis et. al. simply outlived their theories and the now antiquated Mendelian genetics are insufficient to explain polygenetic traits. Hip Dysplasia and most diseases have a huge environmental component that likely influences both the inheritance pattern and the expression of the disease. Put another way until science can account for environmental influences polygenetic traits will never be understood or preventable. The simple facts are that environment, environment X genetics, and non-genetic factors play a bigger role in HD than genetics alone. Otherwise HD would not be called polygenetic at present. This is why the OFA strategy of breeding out HD based on hip scores will never succeed. OFA hip scores can only predict what is but not what can be. Dog owners, dog food makers, pesticide companies making dog pest control products and others profiting from products influencing our dog's health desperately want to blame every disease and syndrome on genetics because that eleminates them and their products and management as the possible cause of dog diseases and deaths. The big tobacco companies used the same logic and lies to try to blame lung cancer on genetics and not on their products.
by melba on 30 May 2016 - 13:05
Melissa
by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 14:05
by Hundmutter on 30 May 2016 - 16:05
certainly outlived what he wrote in 1989. But he was
still teaching and writing until not long before he died,
and I have no recollection that he recanted anything !
Which you would think he might have done if what you
say is unarguable.
Particularly since the all breed scheme, but particularly
the GSD part of it, run under the auspices of the KC / BVA
and before that the GSD League, were really as much his
'baby' as that of anybody else involved, and he continued
to administer the published records of scores.
by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 17:05
I took an animal breeding genetics class in 1976 while in graduate school and I was majoring in plant breeding. The professors were lecturing on and on about results that I had seen with my own eyes and knew to be wrong. This was during the time that Mendelian genetics was thought to be all there was. I asked some probing questions and the professors told me that science knew "everything" about genetic inheritance and there was no room for discussion. I changed majors. In the 40 years hence the old science of Mendelian genetics has been replaced and amended with more complex non-Mendelian and epigenetic science. Science marches on. Any breeding schemes based on a 1975 - 1990 understanding of genetics need to be revisited and amended to account for discoveries and new science in the last 25.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Mendelian_inheritance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoRR_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
by susie on 30 May 2016 - 17:05
That´s still the official belief of SV - the club supports scientific research for decades ( with a lot of money ) now, it´s 100% profed and tested that HD parents do inherit HD to their siblings. There have been a lot of researches with a lot of dogs...
We are able to influence "environmental factors", but at least in my mind it would be criminal to "forget" genetics.
I guess it will take decades to really know about the "genetic inheritance", and to "find" the xyz genes resonsible for HD, but in the meanwhile all we can do is to sort out affected dogs ( and for me it´s less evil to sort out any "injured dog" than to keep a genetically effected dog within the gene pool ).
I would like to see the DUTY to x-ray ( and send in ) EVERY German Shepherd dog, no matter if this dog will be bred later on or not... I didn´t always think like this, but right now ( and "right now" means "for decades" ) we betray ourselves every time we don´t send "bad results" to SV or any other organization.
Won´t happen, because their is no "law" for it. We are living in a "free world"....
by bubbabooboo on 30 May 2016 - 18:05
by susie on 30 May 2016 - 18:05
Justus Liebig University Giessen, Dr Reiner Beuing
Vater = father
blue block = "normal" mother
orange block = "fast normal" mother
yellow block = "noch zugelassen" mother
HD1 = "normal" hips
HD2 = "fast normal" hips
HD3 = "noch zugelassen" hips
they didn´t even use "mild", or "severe" hips...
Sorry, it´s written in German language, but in easy words the result of the study was "nature AND nurture".
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