Vet check question, during a vet visit should the vet pull a 3 month pups legs back to check hips - Page 1

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by jagger42 on 27 May 2016 - 04:05


by NigerDeltaMann on 27 May 2016 - 08:05

A vet can't tell about hip at just 3months of age, based of my understanding of a recent article I read In hips evaluation

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 May 2016 - 10:05

I imagine that the vet was new in the 1960s and early 70s, when "hip palpation" was all the fashion for predicting whether a pup was likely to develop HD. It was certainly CHEAPER than xraying - and was done at about 6 weeks old by vets who thought they could satisfactorily predict. It definitely shouldn't DAMAGE or hurt the pup - but I wouldn't expect a 3 months old pup to enjoy the intrusion on its "dignity". I suspect that the accuracy of those predictions was 50% - in other words, as accurate as tossing a coin with one side for "Dysplastic", the other side for "Free".

What people have to learn is that, until all the genes & their alleles involved in HD (and those involved in ED) are DNA identified, there is NO WAY TO PREDICT whether a particular pooch will develop elbow dysplasia or hip dysplasia. Xrays can see only the phenotype, and the phenotype is what the dominant alleles produce, except when an individual gets the same recessive allele from BOTH parents.

The best we can do is be aware of the WORST score that a parent has produced.

For members of the GSDCAustralia there are tables showing the scores (from 0 for perfect to 106 for "My GOD!") of the progeny of every fairly-widely-used stud. The analysis is more detailed than necessary, but at least it is THERE for members using DownUnder bloodlines.

The KC (UK) has some progeny scores in its web-site - but the Brits insist that all dog owners are ladies or gentlemen who would NEVER hide the truth - and so the idiots use only scores that have been voluntarily supplied.

OFA is no better, it allowing owners to choose to have their pooch's "Fail" NOT published on-line. PennHIP is even worse, not publishing ANY scores. And PennHIP's methodology has resemblances to palpation, so perhaps YOUR vet is licenced to take xrays for PennHIP certification?

The SV's 'a'-stamps are highly unreliable. Its ZW scores are better, but are based on not only actual 'a'-stamps, but also on ESTIMATES of the scores of siblings that are either NOT xrayed or whose plates were destroyed by the vet because the owner didn't want the poor results revealed. One can hope that the GSDs involved were never bred from, thanks to the SV's registration regulations - but the problem is that removing the "sure-to-Fail" pooches from the statistics prevents the statisticians and BREEDERS from knowing how bad the worst ones were.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 May 2016 - 10:05

PS: HD and ED are termed "developmental disorders", because the severity of the disorder develops (worsens) as the sufferer develops (ages).
Don't expect many 3 month pups to have actual xrayable dysplasia - but as muscle/ligament laxity is one of the factors producing hip dysplasia, that laxity might be strongly suggestive that it will later have dysplasia.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 27 May 2016 - 12:05

I know of a breeder who had an expensive German import back in the '70's. She was prepping him for schutzhund, and he was doing well. He could pop over the scaling wall with no problem.

Someone expressed an interest in breeding to him, so the owner decided to get his hips x-rayed.

When the plates were developed, the vet said, "Come take a look at this." She could tell from his expression it wasn't good news.

"These are just about the WORST hips I've ever seen in my practice!" he told her. The hips were totally out of the sockets, and I think the sockets were pretty much non-existent, which is why the dog wasn't showing any pain, because there was no bone-to-bone contact.

She had the expensive German import neutered, and rehomed him to a couple who lived on a farm, where he could get lots of exercise to keep his muscles toned.

Moral of the story: x-rays are the ONLY reliable way to assess hips!!

bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 27 May 2016 - 14:05

BS ... No reason to x-ray at 3 months and pulling on the pups legs can not help .. if your vet is such an idiot that he/she thinks they can judge hips from pulling on legs then get a new vet.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 27 May 2016 - 16:05

[Sunsilver]:
Just so long as you remember that the xrays show the HIPS as at that instant, and the radiologist evaluates the HIPS shown, not the RECESSIVE ALLELES whose effect is blocked in THAT dog by the dominant allele at most of the loci.

The pooch's own hips are what matter to such as users of aide dogs, cops, guide dogs, S&R dogs, security guards, shepherds, S&R dogs.
But what is important to a dedicated BREEDER is the genes that each parent passes on.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 May 2016 - 16:05

Good posts Les; but please don't blame UK breeders
for the KC's intractability over hip scoring - gawd
knows we've asked for this often enough down the
years, from Malcolm Willis individually - to various
Breed Clubs - to breeders - to the Breed Council -
without success. Maybe one day they will move on
it, after all they've just about agreed about eye tests
now ...

bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 27 May 2016 - 17:05

If any of you know which genes are involved in HD or hip and joint formation please educate all of us. The last time I researched HD in dogs or GSD there was little to no indication that any scientist know which genes ( likely many ) are involved in promoting or resisting HD and joint problems in dogs or the GSD. Any talk about dominant and recessive alleles is pure BS if we have no idea how the joint problems are inherited. The more likely scenario is what geneticist call an incomplete inheritance or presentation which is geneticist speak for we don't know or environmental influences play a huge role in the outcome regardless of genetics.  Multiple allele with incomplete dominance is the normal way the world works for most diseases.  Ninety plus percent of genetics related conditions have a environmental component.  Single allele recessive/dominant diseases or syndromes are the exception and not the rule.


by jagger42 on 30 May 2016 - 04:05

Thanks for the advice, well ever since the Vet did the exam and pulled her leg. She runs funny on her back left leg, now im worried!!





 


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