Don't tell me what I want to hear: But what can I learn from behavior? - Page 4

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by ValK on 13 December 2017 - 02:12

whatever

by beetree on 13 December 2017 - 03:12

I see you just joined here in Sept of this year. I want you to know I don’t hold it against you.

It usually takes a while ...  to truly understand....


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 13 December 2017 - 05:12

Good post, Centurian. My feelings on the subject exactly! You are correct, the hackling doesn't mean the dog is a nerve bag fear biter, but it DOES mean it is experiencing some fear or anxiety, even if it's just playing.

I appreciate you backing me up on this. As someone familiar with animal and human physiology, (studied biology at university, then became a nurse) I knew what I said was true, but really couldn't be bothered arguing about it.

It is exactly the same mechanism that makes the hair go up on the back of a human's neck when they are frightened or anxious. We are both mammals, and our bodies have the same neurotransmitters, and work the SAME way.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 December 2017 - 09:12

Surely, with humans AND dogs, there are different degrees of anxiety. You/they can be REALLY worried you are about to be attacked ... or you can be a little skittishly nervous that your playful partner might get a bit too 'heavy'. You get much the same PHYSICAL reactions, whatever that degree. One can be terrifying, but the second can be fun (of a kind). You always need CONTEXT to work out which. Territorial aggression accompanied by a fear response is not the same as playing with another dog in your garden, is it ? But hackling up can occur with both.

by Centurian on 13 December 2017 - 13:12

Hundmutter ... yes ..

You bring up a critical point. "CONTEXT". This is one reason , only one reason why I prefer not to use not use categorical and cliche words to describe a specific behavior why I do not train according to a methodology as , ad nauseum ,I post.
So , to throw a little bit more lighton this : what is meant by "conflict" ? People and dogs can have within thenselves simultaneously two dimetrically opposite feelings ! That is Conflict. For example consider a a dog outting . For a dog , upon hearing the out cue , the dog can harbor two feelings at the same time . One feeling to comply with the wishes of the handler ,versus the other feeling , to keep what is has . I use this example to demonstrate that two completely opposite felings , to keep and to give up cna and do at times exist . Also with the feelings are the thoughts : Two different thoughts , to boot .. can exist within a dog and a person at the same time ! Cognitive dissonance exist in people too . So..... to better understand ultimate behavior itself and the significance, we have to also understand the context , among many other factors.

What does this have to do with the post ... an automatic neurological response that is uncontrollable, hackles going up . There can possibly be more than one thought and feeling going on in adition to the autonomic response. Sunsilver and Hundmutter post well. yes the dog can be playing and at thI avoid 'drive' as a description. Everyone thinks play is fun.. yes and no . Play isn't absolute and pure fun* , when you have even a slight concern or feel even the slightest bit uneasy. One can be uncomfortable , one can be outright fearful . So defense is it just being a little uneasy , uncomfortable , stressed , life threatening situations. In truth , we can be defensive : fight , fright , flight at the onset of becoming uneasy and uncomfortable. And hackles up is only one sign of what the dog is thinking. There are other communications , physiological responses and also , consider context. BTW, when people use prey and defense .. you are being short changed IMOp.

Yes Bee , I did write your name , because my intention was not to ctitisize , but you did write the post and you did mention your dog specifically. You wrote something that was not entirely true. So I addressed that . There is a difference in addressing as opposed to being critical . here is a difference on being constructive as opposed to being destructive. I gave a constructive commentary on what you wrote as being a truth . As I wrote .. i think you really don't care what I write , anyway . No offense was ever intended.

I am glad appreciates that I Valk appreciates I expounded , and I don't think Bee you fair to him/her.. For the record , this raising of the hackles is mch much more deeper and biologically based as most people on this site understand . And I believe Sunsilver with her education has a good handle on this and knows what I refer to. I gave you folks the most simplistic description of that 'raising of the hackles ' from a biophysiological and behavioral point of view. I leave it at that.

Last word. You know something. dog training. It is not all that mystical. People confound dog training like any other vocation , by using hokey pokey lingo . Dogs are not much different than we are. They are different , they are dogs but they are extraordinarily similar. If you know yourself , if you understand humanity .. then you can easily understand your dog. It is not that difficult. When I taught classes it was very very easy for peole in my class to understand their dog when I put the same exact context in to what we as humans experience. E.g many people think dogs should be free.. well would you let your 5 year old be totally free . Pointing a finger at a person is a threat, then why when you point your finger at your dog , and don't feel/ percieve it as a threat ? Two boys wrestling , one gets into a headlock ,then gets ticked off, stressed. After all they are playing , then why when two dogs play it is so hard to think that one dog would get stressed-hackles up. ... Dog world folks .. it is not all that hard to understand and you don't always need words like prey and defense and put everything into a box like categories.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 December 2017 - 15:12

True. To expand my point about 'fear' in the context of 'play', think about those people who so love to be scared they watch horror movies. I'm pretty sure something comparable is often going on in the minds of our pets, e.g. when they romp with other dogs & cats - yes, there is a more limited 'conciousness' than humans, yes, there are always hierarchical factors in the play relationship; but again I believe that the degree of that will vary with the individuals involved. The relations between Beetree's two dogs who live together all the time will have subtle differences with the play between two other dogs who only get together while out on walks.

by Centurian on 13 December 2017 - 16:12

Hundmutter .. exactly :-)

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 13 December 2017 - 16:12

 

Centurian, you have also touched on another subject I was thinking about!

When a dog is in defense mode, there has to be a certain amount of fear and anxiety involved. Every time an animal is pushed into fight or flight mode, the two are at war with each other. Even a dog that chooses 'fight' over 'flight' is still going to have some anxiety over how things are going to turn out. The degree of anxiety depends on the dog, but don't kid yourself, it IS there! How is this fight going to turn out? Am I going to get hurt? Of course, in schutzhund, we repeatedly bolster the dog's confidence by letting it win, thus encouraging it to fight.

And yup, there can also be some defense involved when the dog is in prey/play mode. Think of it this way: you're involved in a hockey game. It's supposed to be all in fun, but there's a guy on the other team who's really big and plays rough. You're going to be thinking, 'this MAY be fun, but I'd better watch out for that guy. He could seriously hurt me!'


by ValK on 13 December 2017 - 17:12

dogs able very well evaluate opponent way before fight broke.

yogidog

by yogidog on 13 December 2017 - 17:12

Good point ss. that's why it is so easy to brake a dog.  that is the tin line between fight and flight known how much pressure to put on your dog that's were reading the dog is so important. And why I have always said nerve is so important to bring your dog through the stress of different situations. A balance on drives with super nerve 






 


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