Sportism - Page 32

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 03:05

gsdfan:

I have seen plenty of old school trained dogs default to equipment too...with my own eyes....Just because you don't first teach a dog to target the equipment doesn't mean a dog from that style is not fallible.

 

Hans :

can you explain what is old school training? You keep saying it, this it is obvious from your posts that according to you the old school training is training based on defense. Period.  Which of course has nothing to do with what I am teaching. I am not talking about prey or defense but I am  talking about TARGETING. If in defense training the dog is trained that he can hurt man by biting sleeve then such dog will target sleeve. I DO NOT DO THAT. I am teaching the dog to target a man at first and I do it in  defense and in prey. 

Really in my training there is little  difference from sport, exccept in sport the dog targets equipment and in my training the dog targets the man. 

There are other differences but for sake of explantion the yellow highlighted text  is enough. 


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 04:05

@Gigante. Default is not as much about muscle memory as about state of mind. After I came back to Czech after 13 years in US I was in my room where I went to sleep. I took my shirt off and was trying to hang it in the middle of the air.......where there used to be a hanger when I was a child. I have then overridden that with my mind and stop doing it. The point is if some stress strong enough occurs then   it will penetrate  to learned default. And if default is penetrated then our primary survival instinct will kick in. - No training there. I keep saying that default is permanent . And in my experience it always was. If the dog is trained on sleeve he will always prefer sleeve. I have never see it otherwise. It is major pain in the the ass. even if you retrain the dog in a linear sportism way and the dog finally targets the man the sleeve preference will show in some situations. These usually do not happen but they may> and that is my worry when I am retraining a dog. I lose sleep about such possibility. Thus I have developed different approach of parallel training and porch training and defaults and so on which is working well for me and LE and PP personnel.

@ Gee. thank you for voice of reason and moderation.


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 27 May 2016 - 04:05

@ Hans only because you asked

GSDfan: Old school training makes the dog suspicious of the man, prior to being taught HOW to bite and bite with confidence by pushing...even just slightly, the dog into defense (by your description this is what you are doing).

I am not necessarily talking about straight agitating with a stick and threatening the dog. Even just showing a young dog/puppy stalking behavior to generate a growl is pushing defense, , pushing suspicion and insecurity, pushing self preservation...ever so slightly to generate an aggressive response. And even if the decoy then runs away you are first rewarding defense (go away)...it is not until the handler encourages the dog to chase that the handler is generating or stimulating and praising a prey response.

I admit from your description you are probably accomplishing this more tactfully over a period of time than I've seen done in shorter time span. But it's still an old school approach. I don't claim to completely know your particular method, but I do have experience with old school programs and know their weaknesses. And I know my method produces a dog with zero equipment default issues, but with higher thresholds which are needed for Police and PSA.

If the dog is not secure with the decoy, when you put him on the bicep his eyes are big as saucers and he does not want to be near his face. When making the dog suspicious and insecure in their foundation you just cannot accomplish this without very slow progression and rarely a dog will reach his best potential. I welcome to see a video of your finished dogs on the bicep or hidden sleeve taking heavy pressure from the decoy without coming off before command or refusing to out upon command.

Really in my training there is little difference from sport, except in sport the dog targets equipment and in my training the dog targets the man. Funny this is EXACTLY what I would say about my training

I always use many pieces of equipment, the pup learns from early on to target the equipment on the decoy not the dead equipment on the ground.  This is not forced or agitated, I manipulate the pup stress free to make the decision himself.  He easily gives it up and goes over it repeatedly from a young age making man targeting simple later when his mind is mature. You end up with a dog who is more confident, just as civil and can take more pressure.


by vk4gsd on 27 May 2016 - 05:05

Gee bunger get your filthy mind out of the gutter.

Gigante

by Gigante on 27 May 2016 - 13:05

@Hans

gigante: Should average Joe and Fido care about permanent default probably not, sport people care, probably not, only really pertinent to people who's training of a dog has life and death or very serious consequences for failure. Hans : Thank you for your good post on page 29. One thing I do not agree there completely though. Personal protection done by average Joe still needs to have correct defaults and sport dog needs to have default to target equipment so that IPO is safe sport.

Gigante: I agree with that, the last line infers anyone training for protection Jill and Joe included. :) 

 

 


Gigante

by Gigante on 27 May 2016 - 14:05

After reading Han's last post and Gsdfan last post I believe this concept is easily tested if someone wishes to do so. To some degree I have seen it done in some sports and by K9 officers in training as well.

I see the test like this. Lets use a football field for reference. Decoys and feild are unfamilar to particpants. 

Handler and dog on goal line. First decoy hidden equipment on 50 yard line. Both equal distance from the sidelines straight line of sight to each other. Crouching parallel to the first decoy a second with his/her back facing the handler/dog wearing a sleeve. This decoy should not move and blend to the ground.

First decoy should draw the dogs attention once the dog has visually acquired the target the handler will send. The first decoy will with little animation keep the dog on target. Once the dog reaches 15 yards the first decoy will signal verbally the second who will get up present sleeve and cross directly in front of the first decoy with some animation. The second decoy will stop and set parallel to the first three yard separation presenting the sleeve. First decoy presents hidden sleeve. Both will then cease all stimulation. Dog makes the choice.

Hans use of the word preference to equipment and GSDfan use of the statement, zero equipment default issues will be tested to a significant degree.

My guess is an overwhelming amount of peoples dogs will redirect and find comfort and hit the sleeved decoy. 


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 16:05

GSDfan good post. Here is my opinion:

IMO based on my  experience it is not so that dog trained correctly first on man and thus forming man preference default , rather then  equipment default,  does not produce  more reliable civil dog. I am aware that that is often believed because dog is evaluated for such ability on suit or sleeve. So then yes, in that situation the dog trained on equipment like you say here "I always use many pieces of equipment, the pup learns from early on to target the equipment on the decoy not the dead equipment on the ground."  will bite better on equipment  dressed decoy, which then will give false impression that the dog is more sure on bite - and  he may be,  but only while biting equipment clad decoy. As a matter of fact some of my dogs who have default to target man will avoid equipment. That oc course gives to sportist an impression that such dog is not secure on bite. Where the truth is that he is actually better when it come to real bites.    Thus I am firmly convicted that it is a mistake to think that civil dog because he does not want to bite equipment is les bite confident. After all equipment biting in real street bite   is not realistic street scenario. The dog on the street is not targeting equipment and does not have opportunity to target equipment and if he is trained to target equipment as you describe it then  may fail  as we sometimes  see it on new LE dogs on the street., that is since perp does not have equipment. As a matter of fact some are naked. Thus when you are mentioning the higher threshold that applies only to equipment work like in PSA which you are mentioning in that context.  it is also telling me that you are putting PSA and Police dog in one bag by saying :" And I know my method produces a dog with zero equipment default issues, but with higher thresholds which are needed for Police and PSA." where PSA as sport is completely dissimilar to Police work as far as targeting goes. PCA training is not civil training even though some think that because the dog is biting equipment that he is civil That is a big big mistake. 

I would like to also say that  I understand that dog trained from equipment to man can and do on regular basis  be trained to bite a man, of course I am not disputing that - I have done it that way for long time myself - but I am convicted that such approach is detrimental to the dog's preferences  between man and equipment bite - sometimes to a disastrous degree. 

 

Prager Hans 

 


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 16:05

GIGANTE; Good test but  I still se ther a  little problem with 1st decoy. You are saying that he has hidden equipment. Most dogs can tell if the decoy has hidden equipment. That would make this test not reliable. Here is a way I would set it up.
Both decoys are strangers one has sleeve and one has nothing. They are no more then 10 feet apart. Dog is 30 feet away equal distance from decoys Both decoys agitate lightly by little motion just to make sure the dog sees them. Dog is on a long line with spring and can not reach the decoys . command to attack is given. Dog will choose a decoy. Repeat several times with different decoys.
 


Prager

by Prager on 27 May 2016 - 16:05

Biceps bite.
Many trainers teach the dog to prefer biceps or chest bite over forearm bite .
IMO dog should be able to do frontal chest, armpit , biceps bite with confidence but should not prefer such bite because in that position he is more vulnerable there, then on standard forearm bite. Again I am talking about preference. Dog should bite quickly any part available to him or her.
Again preference of where the dog bites IMO is based on what I call default.

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 27 May 2016 - 19:05

Bicepts bite.

This only has to do with the position of the decoy. In a realistic situation the decoy does not "present" his forearm. So the dog is taught bicep only as a positional option. Running away tricep, attack bicep, side forearm. There should be no position jockeying by the dog to take any kind of "preference". In a Police situation most of their bites are flee bites on the tricep/forearm. PSA and PP most of them are frontal. A well trained dog is prepared for either.





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top