Defense - Page 4

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Gigante

by Gigante on 29 April 2016 - 04:04

Bee not much of a challenge by stating pshaw and stupid. We cant control what a newbie is going to think.

Its not a skill or observance that is the lacking its time a management issue. I think you are also missing a big point, rewarding a dog is not training. Everyone is pleasuring each other and that sounds great and all but marking an "innate behaviour naming it for use as a command later on is training. Its also faster to the command then forcing or pointing a dog into a command. Twice as fast or better if they have preformed it and you mark and name it.

When a dogs/pups show me a tool I seize it. Mark it name it throw in the toolbox. To many people wait for next Thursday at three to train... the training time. I see no need to wait, seize an opportunity and fast track. If a pup moves in between me and a threat naturally its marked named and praised until its in their toolbox. Likewise, just an alert to a threat or stepping to it is also marked named and praised. Every possible tool the pup shows me gets marked and named and praised to be used for whatever end goal Im setting it up for. If farting was a problem or useful in crowd control Id mark it and name it. Training for me starts when its shown naturally as a pup on the porch, at the dinner table or while reading Bee's new zillion dollar training book. ;)

It should be in each pet persons tool box its not, most have a training schedule or time and try and teach a trick/trait rather then utilize the pups/dogs many natural tendencies when presented to create commands. Thats the idea I was presenting. Using and managing experience's saves a crap load of time and re training. If you tried and its not worked in your K9 business then ok. At least argue why utilizing daily life experience to teach and manage to a goal is less effective then waiting till Thursday at 3.

Not a 100% percent on point with the the actual question of the OP but the thought is relevant to the thread. Words like stupid and mocking people are more often based in anger so on point, on that.

 


by duke1965 on 29 April 2016 - 04:04

it is not so much important what you call it or where you do it, you cannot train a dog by going to the club two hours a week and do nothing the rest of the week, wont work for sport, wont work for anything, the system used in training is not so important as to how it is used, if you cant read your dog, if your timing is off it wont work, same for pressure or reward training, clicker or E collar so better find a good trainer to guide you and give you homework to do when you are not on club, and yes you can do homework on the porch Wink Smile


by vk4gsd on 29 April 2016 - 05:04

Marker training is a new thing now??

 

Get a grip folks, dogs are bring trained from when they are born to the day they die, and every moment in between.... even when you think you are not training them you atr training them.

 

Giving it name is just pretentious.


mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 29 April 2016 - 06:04

So heartwarming to see VK, Joanro and Beetree getting along without all the " I'm ignoring you" comments, ah so nice.

You can all drop the sarcastic posts on yet another thread and let others have their say without all your immature digs. If you have a different opinion fine no need for silly pictures please, if I could be bothered I would go back and delete your silly comments but I can't. SO IT STOPS NOW THANKS.

Mithuna, no Western doesn't have a trigger finger and the thread won't be locked. It will from this point forward be edited/deleted where needed. That also goes for the 3 Amigos and if you persist? well you all know what happens don't you.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 29 April 2016 - 07:04

This may well surprise you Gigante, but I completely
agree with you, for once - and with Duke.

With the exception of factoring in use of e collars, I
am right with you on the need to sieze any and all
opportunities, from the beginning, to educate pups.
I think there is plenty of evidence in all forms of work
with dogs that you get better results that way; and as
'just pets' too. Far too many myths out there about
'dates to start training' [ie don't start till 6 months], number
of hours a week to devote to Training Club, blah blah blah
- the one thing newbies are almost never encouraged to do
is wise up and WATCH their pup and consistently use every
small opportunity to guide it into the result they want (whichever
item in the tool kit they are using). It takes a lot of concentration
and most of us don't always manage to live up to it 100%,but
it surely is not a difficult concept to get across - in abstract.
Instructing new owners at Club or wherever to take these
opportunities / do "homework" away from their weekly date
with the Trainers is however an uphill struggle, often as not.

by joanro on 29 April 2016 - 11:04



There is pages of 'porch training' on the the desert forum, it's a 'catch phrase', not a revelation nor revolutionary method...it's living with your dog no matter what formal training to do later.
Wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just showing that catchy name can be applied to other species training as well...doesn't make it special since it's what every one does with their dog who makes the dog part of their life.


by joanro on 29 April 2016 - 11:04

Hund,  there absolutely are appropriate times in a dog's life for certain training programs....for example the seeing eye dogs. They are raised by a family till a year old, doing normal stuff, probly labled on these pages as 'porch training'.  *Then * they go for formal training for seeing eye. Same for training a dog in defense. More dogs have been screwed up putting them into defense too early that cannot always be reversed.

Gustav said it best.


by vk4gsd on 29 April 2016 - 12:04

I would like to know when a dog isn't bring trained: a wild dog, a pet dog, a MWD, a show dog......any dog.

Does their brains go on pause mode or something when they are not on a training field as some seem to be suggesting?


by Bavarian Wagon on 29 April 2016 - 13:04

For those following...the accepted term for this is "shaping." Dog offers behavior, you reinforce it. It's nothing new, it's used by most trainers. It's also used by "sport" helpers (anyone under the age of 40-50 according to the few masters of helper work on this forum). This is a very common technique that makes dogs active rather than reactive. It has little to do with focusing on the man or the equipment...that is just affected by how the dog is trained and a little bit of the genetics.

Most helpers do this when training protection - sport or "real." Dog offers behavior, gets reward. From the start...puppy barks, rag moves, puppy barks enough, it is released and given a bite. Later on, dog barks in the blind, when proper behavior is presented, helper gives bite (us "sport" helpers have now moved on to marking the behavior with a word before giving the reward, which I'm sure would be poopoo'd by the "real" helpers). Heeling for bites...same idea. Dog gives you the behavior you're looking for, mark, release, reward. Most handlers aren't capable of this because they don't have the patience to let the dog figure out what it needs to do to get the reward...but all the top level handlers will do this. With older dogs which might lack the proper foundation, many helpers will "help" the dog react and present the behavior they want to see. This usually leads to a reactive dog, a dog that can't bark at something that isn't moving or whipping or yelling or making some sort of attraction. These are the dogs that are usually called "real" because they "focus" on the man...even though their focus is just based on the fact that the man is making all the attraction. Usually these dogs aren't clear enough to just bite the sleeve or whatever is presented and are then called "civil" but in reality if you weren't making any attraction the dog wouldn't know what to do. These are the dogs that do a silent guard in the blind or bark extremely weak and all over the place in the blind because they don't know what to do with a helper that isn't moving.

It is interesting however to read people explain the difference between "sport" and "real" work when most of them haven't had any real success in sport...

by beetree on 29 April 2016 - 13:04

rewarding a dog is not training.

@Gigante, that was my point. My using "stupid idea" is blunt, not sarcastic, and no where am I "pleasuring" any one on this post. I never said I was writing a book, unlike other's who like to invent new vocabularies for time-tested disciplines in dog training. You bringing up time management as the relevent defining point at this time, changes the conversation. If I missed that somewhere, I do apologize. The Pet life being lived out everyday on my porch, is one that requires no breaks in my dog's behavior shaping*, just like being a mom to my kid's. That is a 24/7 job. Wait, does that sound like...

"Porch training"  way is the best way because it molds the dog naturally to what you want in every day life by building permanent defaults

Unless my words or intent will again be attempted to be skewed, I am done here. 

 

*BW's post makes sense to me.






 


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