German Shepherd Dog > Pinch Collars (20 replies)
by Nans gsd on 14 June 2012 - 02:34
|If you plan to use a pinch collar on your dog, put a backup system on the dog so that if the pinch comes unclipped or breaks you still have your dog on some sort of collar.|
My friend just lost her beautiful 2nd time around champion male as he darted into traffic after his pinch collar broke and there was no stopping him; he died at the scene.
So for your dogs protection, have a flat, choke or something else not just a pinch collar. N
by dragonfry on 14 June 2012 - 03:34
|Sad advice, sorry to hear your friend lost her dog.|
I've seen pinch collars pop apart, the really bad ones are the "Easy on" quick release type, they are realy not well built and they often pop apart. Also the cheap knock off pinch collars can easily bend causing loss of tention neded to keep the collar intact. Herms still makes the best.
I only use a pinch for training. The rest of the time i walk my dogs on a choker. Never had one of them fail.
I hope this can help save someone else's dog life.
Sorry again for your friend's loss.
by Jenni78 on 14 June 2012 - 13:05
|The good ones typically don't fail, if fitted properly. You're right dragonfry. |
Sad story, but even more important than a back-up, is obedience. It's a good practice not to take dogs out near traffic that really "need" a leash in case of equipment failure. That dog really needs to be trustworthy to stop when you say stop.
What a tragedy that must've been to witness. So sorry for her loss.
by Nans gsd on 14 June 2012 - 15:57
|Yes, can you imagine having that picture engraved in your memory bank. JHC. |
My pinch collar is a herm sprenger (SP??), however, I bought it from that doberman guy (now retired) that used to put extra rivets along with using heavy duty links and wove heavy duty leather thru the links. Was pricey but very, very reliable. Had it for almost 8 years for my boy and is still reliable.
I hope this helps to save someone elses dog(s) also, that is why I posted it. This person was a novice but shame on the trainer for not knowing how to keep the dog safe even on a busy street. Traffic savey is monumental and the training that goes with it is as important as any other training.
Better days ahead everyone, Nan
by Conspicuous on 14 June 2012 - 16:06
|How awful for your friend Nan. :(|
Thanks for the warning. I have never used a pinch collar before, so never thought of that, but I'm getting my first GSD soon. If that is a piece of equipment I ever end up using, I'll be sure to have a backup of some sort.
Do you think something like this would work? This is a bucking strap for horses, but you could maybe clip it tot he snap of your leash, and then onto a flat collar? I think it should be long enough to not interfere with the pinch chain action, but not so long that it's in the way?
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 16:48
|"Sad story, but even more important than a back-up, is obedience. It's a good practice not to take dogs out near traffic that really "need" a leash in case of equipment failure. That dog really needs to be trustworthy to stop when you say stop."|
I agree. The importance of 100% reliability in a few basic commands can not be overemphasized when it comes to the safety of your dog(s).
Having said that, I've owned many Hermes Sprenger prong collars with quick release buckles and have never had one fail.
by Nans gsd on 14 June 2012 - 17:15
|For back up I used prong/pinch (call either) and a light choke chain and both were clipped to leash; especially during traffic training which in So. Cal is every where you go. You can't get away from traffic.|
You can also have any type harness with second leash hooked to it or pull tab to grab in case you need to. There are many ways to back up your collar even use just a flat collar which most people (especially novice) use as rabies tags etc are on them. This particular dog did not have his on as it was ripping out his coat and he was being shown so owner was trying to get his coat grown back in. And yes he was a handful being a young in tact male. So, just a heads up. Nan
PS: Keith, do you really think you can get 100% realiability? I used to think so until my Rotti crossed his boundary lines and went after another dog; the boundary training for me was a big deal; he was NEVER, NEVER allowed to cross this line even ON leash but did it anyway; bit another dog and the owner was stupid enough to try to get in the middle. I did call him off, thank you for the knowledge of an e-collar and did not feel I could ever trust him again. His life changed at that point forever. So that was that. Nan Boy my training sucks if that is the case.
by minro on 14 June 2012 - 17:45
|Such a sad story, I'm sorry for your friends loss. As mentioned before, Sprengers are the best pinch collars, and well worth the investment (compared to the other cheap ones you can buy at Petco or petsmart)|
Also, Jenni is right. More important than making sure to use a safety, is solid obedience. Even IF my dogs' pinches were to fall off, they would just sit there and stare at me.
As long as you are a conscious owner and check your equipment regularly for widened links (which shouldn't be hard if you are using it regularly), collars falling off should not be an issue. An important thing to know about pinch collars, though, is that you NEED to put it on/take it off at the same spot (the designated prong and fastener at the top) everytime it is used. Otherwise, all the links will slowly get wider and then you really risk the collar busting one day. By putting it on/removing it at the same spot, you only mess with one link, which can easily be replaced when you notice that it's too wide.
by Keith Grossman on 14 June 2012 - 17:59
|"Keith, do you really think you can get 100% realiability?"|
Probably not but if that isn't the goal you train for, you'll undoubtedly never even get close.
by Nans gsd on 14 June 2012 - 23:45
|No really Keith: are these dogs REALLY capable of 100%?? I mean mentally? Can they handle that pressure? Of course I would love 100% but years ago someone told me that you or anyone would NEVER get 100% out of a dog no matter how hard you train. Or how effectively you train?? Just asking. Nan Thx for your input. N|
by yellowrose of Texas on 14 June 2012 - 23:58
|You are right Nan...I never ever trusted my best...I always use leash and collars two ..just like you posted.|
I have seen top dogs , USA champion SCHh3 , BREAK and run after a deer..
GOD gave the german shepherd a prey drive and I will never trust that instinct to bolt no matter how great that dog never breaks a command or a stay .
I have seen two dogs do it. I have seen 10 dogs sit thru a bolt and not pursue the deer or squirrel and never move...but I would not trust it..
too sad to be writing about it later..
I am over sensitive to death...I have a wire kennel at my front gate...when gate opens whoever is on the in side goes in until my gate and my truck is in place and gate locked..I have deer, armadillas, people, and other dogs and squirrels going across a busy FM road...no way would I trust my collar less kids...but I am a no body of a trainer so I will collar mine safely...lol
by Jenni78 on 15 June 2012 - 02:24
|No one is saying not to use leashes and collars!!! |
Hard to say if anyone can really ever have 100% obedience, but I have dogs currently who have never, ever, broken certain commands, regardless of the distractions. Some dogs DO listen 100%...or 99%...which may be the best you can hope for with ANY living thing, hence the back-up equipment.
The moral of the story is use one more form of control than you think you need.
by Keith Grossman on 15 June 2012 - 03:34
|"No really Keith: are these dogs REALLY capable of 100%?? I mean mentally? Can they handle that pressure? Of course I would love 100% but years ago someone told me that you or anyone would NEVER get 100% out of a dog no matter how hard you train. Or how effectively you train?? Just asking. Nan Thx for your input. N"|
My point, Nan, is that is we set the bar at 80% reliability or 90%, we start to make excuses for the 10 or 20% of the time that the dog doesn't do what we expect. In my experience, the dogs tend to rise to the level that we expect of them. If we expect that they will do what we want most of the time, they will...most of the time. If we expect that they they will do what we want all of the time, they will do that as well.
As an aside...love your dogs...
by Jenni78 on 15 June 2012 - 12:38
|Ditto, Keith. People think 95% is "good enough." Or they say "you can't expect a dog to ____________ all the time." I disagree. Their very lives could depend on their compliance on day. How serious are you when you tell your child not to run into the street? I am just as serious when I teach the "stop" command or "leave it." I assume that if I'm using these commands, there is very real potential danger, and I am deadly serious in my expectations of 100% compliance. |
The leash and collar IS the back-up, to me. Or at least that's how I think it should be. People tend to use training equipment as crutches instead of a safety measure in place until they're not needed anymore. Lots of people disagree, but I honestly think they're missing out big time on what a dog is truly capable of and the amazing relationship you can have with a dog who you can communicate that well with. Nothing bugs me more than people putting a glass ceiling above a dog, thinking "a dog can't do that."
by mollyandjack on 15 June 2012 - 13:18
|Very very sorry about your friend's dog, Nan. That is just terrible to go through.|
Maybe this is just my own confirmation bias ;-) but I've noticed that a lot of the people who understand the importance of mental control and see leashes and collars as "backup" ( but very important and habitually used backup!) have worked with horses or other large animals.
by Conspicuous on 15 June 2012 - 13:24
|LOL! So true Mollyandjack, I have horses, never thought about it like that, but you're correct. You aren't going to out muscle a 1400lb animal, it's all training and how you direct them with your body language.|
by beetree on 15 June 2012 - 14:11
|I remember a long time ago, something I read, or someone said to me, the only reason you can control a horse who obviously is much larger than you, is because the horse THINKS you are bigger than him.|
by Nans gsd on 15 June 2012 - 15:58
|Thank you everyone; am just trying to possibly save someone else from a tragedy like this. My No. Cal. trainer taught me to have a backup as I obviously cannot run after and get my dog, by the time I could get to them it could be too late. With that in mind, I have always trained with a backup system, sometimes somewhat laxidasical but none the less something for safety.|
Personally I am thinking about a harness along with whatever collar I use. That is my latest thought for safety; and as far as the 80-100% reliability; I am going to strive for that 100%; I have been lax as of late but NO MORE. Thx Nan Great days everyone and be safe.
by hunger4justice on 29 June 2012 - 05:18
|Leerburg makes a double ended leash just for that reason, one clip goes on the pinch and the other on the back up collar|
by TingiesandTails on 29 June 2012 - 05:31
|I agree, if you don't think you can trust your dog 99% of the time, it will never happen, and your dog knows it.|
You have to test your dog challenging situations at different times, work with the weakness to secure the behaviour.
I use Herm Sprenger for 30 years and it never came off.
It just needs to be one command that you can rely on all the time, like a "Platz" or so that can safe your dogs life.