2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 14

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Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 August 2017 - 15:08

Hundmutter, I agree. I have no qualms about admitting I am "down" on anything against the standard. It's unfortunate that one cannot separate disdain for those breeding against the standard from disdain for the animal itself. Of course these "against standard" pups can be fantastic animals- that is not the point! The point is that we have a breed standard. If you don't like it, find another breed that suits you better. And, the GSD was not meant to be a dog bred for the production of pets. Quite honestly, I have as much disdain for anyone selecting and breeding only for the production of pets as I do blues, livers, etc. Only difference is those with the off colors can't feign even trying to meet the standard, whereas the standard colors can. Now I'll be accused of hating pets, lol.

And it's true- so many subpar breeders are doing all sorts of close linebreeding without a clue as to what they're bringing out- and their buyers don't care. Vicious cycle. It's why the majority of health disasters are in pet homes. Sad.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 August 2017 - 18:08

Exactly. Don't know if this was a close breeding, (if not, its completely OT!) but there is someone who has just protested on my Facebook page about having a (B&R) dog under two years who has been diagnosed with ED. Turns out his sire and dam both had scored elbows - they had both scored 3. !!! Now she is complaining about the two guys who bred it, for doing the mating. Both are 'unknowns' here. Neither shows up on any list I have seen. And OK, she's right. But NOT A WORD about how she could have found herself some more experienced breeder, who knew not to do that; or about knowing about ED before she went to buy and asking about the parents' scores. (She obviously didn't). In other words, no due diligence, as per. And yet she has worded her post against ALL the GSD breeders ... and with the atmosphere as it still is over here re Show dogs and the breed in general, that is news we can always do without.


kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 14 August 2017 - 19:08

Jenn how many honestly, can you say you or the breed are using to move forward with from dogs you bred per the standard?
Were everyone of that wasted litter defective in ways other than a color fault? Both parents titled were they but because a couple had flawed colorthat made them all useless. The color really has nothing to do with workability
You should have been able to salvage something of the litter.
I assume you fault the sire of the litter as the producer of wasted resources as you carried on on with Aria and the chance that she could again produce another wasted litter since you' remain in the line
I have no clue how much line breeding is your lines only that you know and like the dogs in that line, as well you should or you shouldn t be breeding off them. Right
And how many of your dogs bred to and by the standard have been successful achieving titles and are actually doing work acceptable work and not living asapet somewhere And how many of your own dogs are putting in a days'work' that is acceptable as to be working dogs? Truthfully
Me my dogs are my dogs they can be on the unemployment line Andi still consider they are doing a job.
Andi also find it acceptable if more of my dogs go into non typical working homes because they may not be doing a job that working enthusiast find adequate but to the family that has that added sense of security because of that dog that's a pretty good gig in my book
Look how much personal security guards get Paid.
And as far as those breeding in the back yard, to close inbreeding and line breeding the ones affected by the Greeder Breeders are the ones buying ignorantly with no regard for the heartaches than lie ahead, for the poorly bred dogs, if the buyer gets taken that's on them, information is free and readily available to anyone interested enough to look it up
Those breeding have no real impact on the breed or any of us we take the time to gain the knowledge to make informed decisions be it for breeding or buying.
What it boils down to is just because dogs are bred one way or another you really can t be certain what the outcome of your dogs life will be,we can t even be sure with people when a birth defect will come out. If we could some of these breeders from Germany that have been in the breed for generations surely would have masteredtheart ofnearprrfectionby now

Western Rider

by Western Rider on 14 August 2017 - 21:08

Kitkat I will admit I did and am not going to read your whole post.

I stopped with  the wasted litter part.

JENNI SAID THE DOGS were not a waste just what SHE wanted from the breeding to go on with.

Now please drop this crap and if it is not possible to go back on topic don't post.

Same for all others. Enough of this personal %%%%%


by YaYa x4 on 17 August 2017 - 13:08

So, thank you to ALL who replied, and I do mean all.

I spent hours pouring through the litter's pedigrees. It has been an interesting and edifying journey. I chased these dogs along their history- many all the way to 1895- and it was amazing to see the names and breeding habits along the way! And yes, there was more tight breeding earlier on, BUT it still occurs in many lines about every 15-20 years to condense and clarify the lines.

I spent time studying the anatomy and physiology of the breed's standards throughout its history. I also see why so many breeders think they are adhering to the standard, but whose dogs look and function so completely different. There is great variable among opinions on what nobility and confidence looks like... For instance, another Great Grandsire of this litter is VA1 (CAN) 7X VA Zambo vom Riedschlurgi 
2011 & 2012 WUSV UNIVERSAL SIEGER, 10X SCHH3, 100 PT FH1, but in motion, I see now how he differs from dogs of years past. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=568619-zambo-vom-riedschlurgi

I have since spoken to numerous national and international breeders of GSDs with excellent titling AND proven progeny.

I dug further into inbreeding (including acceptable inbreeding that people call "linebreeding") and read the theories and studies of Wright, Brackets Formula, and others. I have also spoken to some in the field of breeding, including Dr. Robert "Hutch" Hutchison of the Animal Clinic Northview in Ohio, and some people in general genetics. Humans have laws against this because repeated inbreeding concentrates the recessive flaws over time- not typically in single breedings.

No one I spoke with seemed overly concerned about this breeding based on the manner in which it was done, especially because the line has not been overly inbred prior.

I still do not know if I am getting one of these pups or passing. I am going to see them again this week. So far though, they are everything a female working GSD should be by all standards- even comparing to "good pups" from non-inbred/outcrossed parents.

The bottom line I suppose is thank you.

(and for those who may question if I understood what I found, I am in a 'human' health-related field, have degreeS, and have studied anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, advanced micro & macro metabolism, etc.- genetic expression, substitutions/omissions, and epigenetics, are very relevant to my 'day' job. I posted here hoping to have people provide real-life examples and pics vs. theoretical probabilities vs. social taboo...)


Koots

by Koots on 17 August 2017 - 18:08

Sounds like you have done far more research and 'due diligence' than many - kudos to you.

If you believe in the breeder's rationale for this mating, and are comfortable with what you have researced and seen from the litter/parents, then by all means pick the pup best suited to your needs (with the breeder's help). Then enjoy raising and training your pup and above all - have fun!





 


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