Vocalization and self control (2013) - Page 2

 

wouldnot call that self control, dog will understand which actions(or lack thereof) will get him what he wants, understanding that by being obedient to handler/trainer, to begin with

Actually, yes.

Control can be taught to a point where a dog will control himself even though you leave the room. The conditioning is strong, especially when paired with consequences. My friends Malinois is the best example. If she tells her to sit and "rest" the dog will sit there no matter what. It's so strong, she can go in and out of the building, other dogs can play with a ball, food tossed around, it all does not matter. That's trained and not genetics.

Through Crate Games, Platform work and NePoPo you can get some serious impulse control where you can toss anything in front of a dog whether the handler is present or not.

 

if you want to call trained behaviour, self control,go ahead,

I think people are awarding dogs with way to many human traits

👍👍👍

This is just Valk's way of expressing he doesn't like today's high drive GSDs that are unlike the low drive, defensive dogs he was used to in the DDR. Innate intelligence and self control are totally unrelated. Self control is taught and is called obedience. It is learned discipline. The word discipline comes from the Latin word for pupil or student, which infers learning. Discipline can be further broken down into preventive, supportive and corrective discipline. I can think of examples of how these terms directly apply to dog training. Sure, there are dogs that tend to leak drive more than others, but that doesn't make them bad dogs. A dog that can't learn to control himself through obedience training has a major temperament issue.
Duke,
If you think trainers are attributing dogs with too many human traits, can you explain? You have to operationally define any behavior so that everyone understands and agrees what the behavior you are labeling actually is. As I have said before, dog training is not rocket science, but it is more complex that saying a dog can't be taught self control. If you can't teach self control, why bother to train a dog in obedience at all. I think part of the problem with people training higher drive dogs is that that many don't appreciate that eliciting too much drive while a dog is learning a new behavior interferes with a dog's ability to attend, think and learn.

It is easy to confuse training the parameters of self control ex: self regulation, impulse control, delayed gratification (this one especially), etc.. with actually teaching self control.

I don't follow you. By parameters are you saying limits? While I agree with Valk that genetics determine the thresholds and intensity of traits/drives a dog possesses, training is all about manipulating those thresholds which is essentially teaching self control. Maybe he is saying there is a difference in innate self control and learned self control. I would rather have a dog with higher drives or more of an innate lack of self control than a dog that is too, phlegmatic/dispassionate.

Interesting - people's ideas about canines and specifically the GS .

I have often stated to students that the biggest mistake years ago that was touted was that we shouldn't anthropormorphize dogs. That is ' to attribute human qualities and traits onto the dog '. The irony is that is the worst statement and thought that should have been put forth . I have found interesting that people that own pets understand their pets at times much better than so called high end professional people working dogs . And I explain why I say that :

I have an expression : The dogs are so much like people [ us ] and at the same time they are different than people [ us ]. IMOp if you cannot understand that , understand that he Ying and the Yang both exist simultaneously , then you know nothing about the canine. And that is what I find often : people know what they know and desire to know no more than what they want to know. Many people learn a little foundation about the dogs and then all if a sudden they think they are experts and never ever ever to seek out more - they get locked into that foudation thinking and deny themselves to see something beyond that foundation . Tunnel vision .

So humans like to possess [ a big word that some like to use ] , so don't canines, yes ? People like to aggress , so do canines. People have fears ,so do canines , people chase people , so do canines chase , people get startled and over react , so do canines [ exaggerated response to stimuli ], people feel pain , so do canines. People have innate instincts and reflexes , so do dogs [ autonomic nervous system], People have strategies , so do canines, people have preferences , so do canines , people have courage , so do canines [ they have predisposed genetic traits and similar character traits ]. people are problem solvers , so are canines . People can be social or antisocial , so can canines , people can have high or low stress levels , so can canines . people can be hard in nature or soft , so can canines . people can be hyperactive , so can canines, People think , feel and have motivations , and so do canines. Peopl e can be normal or avnormal [ mentally ] , so can canines , people have senses and use them all the time , so do canines. Peoople will fight , flight, fright in repsonse , so do canines . Yes they are different in repsects because they are dogs yet at the same time they are so very much just like humans in certain repsects...
We absolutely have similar traits and attrributes , after all are not humans and dogs , both animals alike ?

Some of you so called professionals and experts .... now , do you get the point ? Personally I get so tired how you people that think you are so experienced , think that people and dogs are so much different that you cannot see how we are so very similar and alike . You think and a dog is just a dog and in that thinking IMOP you show me how much you really lack in understanding about the ' Canine'.

" So awarding dogs to much traits " . I will tell you that we cannot understand the canine unless we first truly understand ourselves [ our nature and make up ] . You cannot master the dog unless you have unerstood and mastered yourself. You cannot understand how a dog can control itself unless you first have peace within yourself and have total control over yourself [ spritually , mentally , physically ].. So when you fail to understand the dog , look at the dog and then look at yourself and you will find that answer within yourself and the dog. How could you possibly ever undrtsand the dog , how it thinks , feels , is motivated ? For if you truly understood yourself you would clearly see that this is also the nature of the dog too and also if you understood the dog that dog would show you how you could better yourself .

I tell you truhtfully , I once thought as many others do .When I startedout to train dogs I thought I knew a lot and that I was going to teach and change them .Some years after handling , teaching and interacting with the dogs ,one day I realized and I I found that although I was going to teach the dogs and change them , that they had in fact changed me. They taught me more about myself and life , even though I so called worked them - more than I could ever teach them . If you have truly worked a dog , you would have a deep deep appreciation of : how more similar dogs are to us than they are different they are from us !! So , IMOp , big boy , keep working at it , some day you may actually get there.... just saying

PS - nice post Apple .... { after 4 years of learning Latin I should have known that :-) }

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/decoding-your-pet/201806/dogs-and-humans-have-similar-social-and-emotional-brains

Apple, thank you. You can see it in anxiety and how people fed into it with their dogs. There was just an article about parents accommodating their children anxiety and feeding into it. The way to "train it out of them" is very much the same as we do it in dogs. That is because our brains basically work the same way and the laws of conditioning don't change, whether you condition a human or a dog, the laws of conditioning don't change. The military is the best darn example of how people are being shaped, conditioned, structure and management is applied on a daily basis and the 4 quadrants are being use. Their life is entirely structured and managed and they basically have no say in what happens on a day to day basis.

If you know learning theory, you know why and how it's being used and that it's quite literally eerily similar to how we are conditioning and structuring dogs today.

If you are talking about thresholds, USE the word threshold rather than self control.

it is Obvious that dogs do not think, respond, and plan etc. like humans do, many humans think the dogs do, thats all I am saying