Thoughts on this breeding - Page 4

Cent, I didn't accuse you of anything, I asked you a question based on simple logic. You still don't get my point - no problem - it's always a pleasure to talk to someone that respectful like you.

I wouldn't argue whether lost traits can be reclaimed or not. a single minded, focused person can do a lot.

I will however point to a different breed that lost the traits that it was noted for. The Doberman. At one point in it;s history, it was the war dog of choice for the U.S. Marines. Referred to as the "devil" dog. Many served as civil police dogs.

It didn't take many years of popularity and show breeding to eliminate the original traits. if they still exist anywhere in the world, I would be curious to see examples.

jmo,
Rik

I think this is mainly "Nature vs Nuture" again. At the same time as Rik's 'devil dogs' existed / were still in military and other use, there were plenty of gentle, funny Dobes around in everyday life. I can recall that far back.

They were probably more than yer average 'pet' owner could or should have handled, being a large active intelligent bouncy working dog, but they were not monsters.

So if you breed for and perhaps more importantly TRAIN for distinctive hyper-driven, aggression-laden type, that's what you get; but that does not mean you have 'eliminated' original traits, or totally changed a breed's temperament. After all, the genes for a decent companionable temperament have to start out in there, too !

Risk , THAT is an excellent example!!! I have a friend that has been breeding Dobes for over 40 years, and is a super trainer and he laments how it is almost impossible to find Dobes today with strong working temperament anymore. I was the bad guy about ten yeats ago for a Doberman temperament test and out of 28 adult dogs only five passed the test. The breed is nothing like it used to be.....nothing!!

The creation of the dog and purposes of use was not for a sweet dog that is friend to everyone...but that’s what it is basically today with the uninformed promoting it.

For whatever this is worth I copy of part of some commentary today about Ancestry.com :

Though, as I had explained to my sisters, most siblings have a different mix of ethnicities due to the random nature of genetic inheritance, I still wondered: How different could we really be?

And of course I was dying to know: Which sister would prove to be the most Irish?

As we waited for our results, we challenged our friends and family to see if they could tell who looked “most Irish.”

Can you tell just by looking at us? Here we are, from oldest to youngest (that’s me on the far right).

Image-02It’s hard to say just based on our photos, I know. We don’t even look particularly alike, though I can say for sure we are all sisters — DNA did prove that.

And the DNA Verdict Is…
After several weeks, we had everyone’s results.

Take a look:

Image-03-2

Do you see what happened? My oldest sister’s ethnicity results (on the far left), show she’s 45% Irish.

Mine show I’m just 22% Irish. So my sister is twice as Irish as I am!

And my other two siblings were right around 30% Irish. That means, despite my birthday, I’m actually the least Irish.

I Was the Odd Woman Out
Oh wow. I was reeling. But our DNA had more surprises in store.

Take another look:

Image-04-2

All three of my sisters received a good portion of ethnicity from Europe West — and I basically got none.

In the first moment I almost felt robbed. But then I realized my ethnic mix is just different but every bit as awesome.

I am, for example, the most British (cue British accent and Britishisms like “Bob’s your uncle”).

How Can This Happen?
We all get 50% of our DNA from each of our parents. But they don’t give each kid the same 50% — unless you’re identical twins. ******[see blow the post]

So it’s not super unusual for siblings to have different percentages of their parents’ ethnicities.

It makes sense if you think about the science behind it. But the first time most of us learn that our siblings can be more Irish or have DNA from a region that we totally lack, it’s definitely mind blowing.

Are you more or less Irish (or any other ethnicity) than your siblings? Find out with an AncestryDNA test.



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*******As I wrote . An interesting point I saw on an article on MSN.com today . So , we can do all we want on paper , but that is not exactly understanding genetics or what genetic outcomes will be .. Genetics is not all that straight forward ... and not all that easy .....

I guess the point I would like to make is that these "devil" dogs were not extreme dogs. they were procured and screened by the DPCA for military use from private family homes. most of them were family pets able to function in a family environment. yet a % of them were able to transition to military duty and there is a lot of recorded instance of them serving valiantly.

they are not the only breeds one could give examples of. Airedales were once noted police dogs. Bouviers too, though I think there are still some. Golden Retrievers?

today, it is still possible to find GSD that can do what GSD was intended for. but I guess I don't believe that original purpose was high point, extreme in any aspect, or front reach (edit to add "sweet"}. these are just things that have been bred for at the expense of original goals.

Good post, Rik! Yes, very true! That's what the GSD used to be like, too, but specialization for high points in IPO or front reach in the show ring has just about ruined the breed.

As for 'sweet', well, I have a working line female that is very sweet in the house, great with other people, other dogs and my cat, but an absolute rocket if you show her the sleeve!  I also just finished a scent detection course with her, and have entered a trial that takes place in mid-July.  Her dad's a certified police K9 for scent detection (narcotics) and man-trailing, and is also trained in suit work and muzzle fighting.

Hoping to get some nice pups from her...

So, the diversity is still there if you know where to find it. Given the names you mentioned, you know that too.

That's funny, Cent.
After telling the whole forum how stupid I am you now use this "Irish ancestry" example exactly proofing my points.

50:50, but you never know which traits will pass on, so you have to select within the next generation...

50:50, so you are able to breed back single traits as long as those traits aren't lost in every single dog of the whole breed...

Susie:        Precisely !

 

I've been saying this forever, not just about this thred and temperament / drive issues, but about colours, and diseases, and ...

Genes do not just 'disappear'; they are either multiplied on by successful and successive breeding, or they are not.  When they are not, they lurk.  Epilepsy is a case in point :  it STILL crops up most noticeably in those lines containing multiple bloodlines which can trace back to known affected dogs of the past, even where there have been several generations clear in between.

 

There are just too many permutations / combinations.  People seem to expect that the science of genetics is now so precise (in the human, at least, where most research money has been spent on it) that it can answer every question, predict every outcome to an exact extent.

 

But in reality, there are so many things we do not yet fully understand, about how differerent genes operate, or turn 'on' & 'off' in relation to each other, that the number of e.g. diseases etc that can be said to have been completely eradicated is tiny.  Only in some disease conditions and some sex-linked issues can that be said to be "known"; the rest is still up for grabs. Subject to a genetic "shaking of the dice". If that is still true of human physiology, how much more is it the case with the canine genome ?

So we get about 50% percent of content of their genetic make up of a parent contributedto their offspring at most . So that does not say 100% does it ? Then tell me , what exactly happens to the other 50% of a parent's genetic make up , that is not contributed to the offspring , that is to say no longer is in the genetic  passed on to the offspring ? You people really lack understanding .. I have stated repeatedly , with certainty . when some genetic traits are lost , these traits cannot be bred back . If you think that you have bred these traits that I speak of , then you better take a look at what you have produced because you will have something entirely different. In the very recent past , there was the mindset by some breeding the GSD to cross the GS with Malinois to bring back certain traits. The reality is that you neither have a GS or a Mal l , what you have is a cross breed. And if , as the SL stands now , you think you are going to make them work as they once were ... you are assuming that if you take a WL , who is in essence a whole different genetic make up from what it once was and also compared to the WL , and who may contribute the 50% of it's genetic material , not knowing or having any idea what that 50% is , you are going to eventually going to get a SL that can work work like it once did. What you will in essence  be doing , is the opposite : not contributing loast traits to the offspring but  , in  amanner of sepaking , watering down the genetics of the WL parentage .

     You people work on numbers/percentages  , but traits are not numbers. They have a qualitative and quantitative aspect. Some traits when the either of these aspects approaches zero , you just don't mate one dog with them and the other dog practically without them , and think that you are going to infuse them back to simply get the same of something better. If you want to talk percentages , and that is your BASIS , then I will talk that with you .. what about the other 50% , and that being the 50% that you want and need , that never gets passes on ? Once lost , it is lost !

 Hund ..    I would take a step back . Genes that are governing behavioral traits I would not discuss on the same wavelength as genes that govern disease. Some disease are multifactorial .  Behavioral traits Im look a little differently .  The ability to endure pain , the ability to retrieve , the ability to endure stress .. these are not diseases.  Although there are genes that are latent. But either the genes are paseed on to the progeny or they are not. There is no other possibility . 

   BTW , off topic : humans have the ability to influence their chromosomes , their expression nof that DNA. WE can affect how our DNA works ...