Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 21

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Prager

by Prager on 15 September 2018 - 15:09

It is up to the trainer make sure that the conditioning does not extinct. At first, the decoy shows always up AFTER the dog goes into drive. But later the pattern show don't show ( the decoy) becomes randomly irregular. That leads to 2 points.
1/ the dog will turn on even so decoy is not present - or at least the dog does not know that he is present. that is an extremally valuable tool. and
2/ the randomness of when the dog shows or after how long time after the command increases dog's intensity.

by joanro on 15 September 2018 - 15:09

Years ago, I had a fox terrier who loved to bark at a little pinwheel when I blew on to make it spin. I could say
' pinwheel' and she would jump up barking at it even when it was put up out of reach and not moving.
If she and I were in a different room in the house from the pinwheel, I could say pinwheel ! and trigger her to jump up and bark, anticipating going to get the pinwheel....Association of words connected to learned behavior....teaching a dog to associate a word with action of getting to bite a sleeve is no different.
No big deal, it doesn't mean the decoy is going to arrive, nor that the pinwheel was going to be presented to tear it up.
I can do the same thing with my old gsd bitch...she associates the word " squirrel" with hunting squirrels. I can say the word squirrel and she will jump up and look up in the trees when outside, if we are in the house, she will go to the door and anticipate going out to hunt.
Very simple association, nothing unique to biting a sleeve on a decoy's arm.

by joanro on 15 September 2018 - 15:09

Not "extinct", the word is " obsolete"....remember when I had to explain that to you because you thought when I spoke of training becoming " obsolete" , you misunderstood.... you thought obsolete meant the training was being, your word was, " errased" (extinct = errased ).


by duke1965 on 15 September 2018 - 18:09

Hans, quit the BS, first of all there is a decoy, the dog knows as he is focussed to that corner already before command pozor comes, there is absolute no change in the dog at command pozor, other than that the handler starts walking towards the corner where the dog is focussed at already, the rest, well, dont hope that was general result of teaching pozor commandWink Smile


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 15 September 2018 - 18:09

Putting a dog into Alert mode or “alert drive” or ‘expection”?
Nothing easier to do than that. All I have to do is whisper “what’s that?” And my dogs jump up, look around and are ready for whatever. Sure, if I did it 10 times a day, they dogs would look at me like I’ve lost my mind, give me the dog equivalent of the fing#* eventually.

Ugh, I dislike the videos like that with kids trying to get dogs to bite without knowing what they are doing. Great way to have the dog, possibly in worst case scenario, end up on death row.

To Valks post:
Valk says:
“what difference between our approaches it's that you see acceptable to motivate dog during the training by means other than yourself. my stance - my dog should have the value of interaction with me way above anything else, be it food, toy or act.”

Me:
I enjoyed your post Valk and agree with everything you say.
But...really, you are saying the same thing I am about toys/food/reinforcement when you say the above. You are giving the dog VALUED REINFORCEMENT when it does something you like, in form of food, toy or action, playtime, interaction or praise.

Valk says:
after first correct execution the pup got rewarded by even more intense play with me. in short while, for pup this becomes part of play which during the growth and maturity will transform into natural behavior for dog itself, without expectations to receive something else in exchange..”

Me:
YES! That is correct! Exactly what I said. Sooner or later the teaching will become part of the dogs nerve makeup and be automatic, if well taught, then, you do not always have to give something to the dog in exchange. It will be classically conditioned.

Valk says:
“- in interaction you behave as alpha in pack (that's perception already embedded in dogs from day they born) thus mental connection and bond proceed in natural way.
- you letting pup to realize you're stronger, smarter but at same time fair - thus you're leader who must be abided and respected.
- replacement of the material objects by an interaction as reward, forms your future dog for whom the work with”

Me:
YES, YES, YES. All true.
And, lastly... as you say, start right away. If you get pup at 7-8 weeks, start the first 5 minutes you have the dog. Know that everything you do is teaching the puppy something....good or bad.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I just wanted to show we are on the same page...maybe just the words are different.


by joanro on 15 September 2018 - 20:09

Well, Duke, what do you expect from a guy who claims that when a dog is leaping through a field, ( like a fox pronking for mice) that he is tracking a deer because deer leap through fields! Lol

Or how out, while on a track, your *search and rescue* dog will help you by  pulling you up a loose shale mountainside, because dogs like to pull! 


by ValK on 15 September 2018 - 21:09

sussie:

This may sound difficult, but some trainers do make use of tools "only", whereas the good trainers do make use of tools...

meaning behind your sentence is not difficult to grasp and i'm here not to dispute your approach. if that works for you - fine.


i believe Prager said somewhere earlier about development in the dog the trait toward self serving goals.

every time preference is given to favored by the dog reward (toy, food, action), it  rather build in dog's mind the chain of behaviour, on the last link containing culminating point - obtaining desirable reward (toy, food, action), than helps in establishing strong mental and physical bond.
so in some perspective when you see materialistic object or behaviour allowance as a tool to motivate dog, at same time your dog uses own performance as a tool to manipulate you, with purpose to obtain favorite things.
if for some reasons you wouldn't be able to provide this last link of that dog's chain, dog's performance most likely will decline.

 


Prager

by Prager on 15 September 2018 - 23:09

Duke:
Hans, quit the BS, first of all there is a decoy, the dog knows as he is focussed to that corner already before command pozor comes, there is absolute no change in the dog at command pozor, other than that the handler starts walking towards the corner where the dog is focussed at already, the rest, well, dont hope that was general result of teaching pozor command

Hans( Prager) What ever. You just do not know now how to back away from your ridiculous statement that handler can not turn dog on from calm to drive if the decoy is not present. I can go right now out to my kennel where all the dogs have siesta and sleep and say POZOR! and all dogs are going to go bananas > I can also do it with each one of my dogs individually too. All that while my decoy is having a beer at home. I have never seen such a ridiculous statement as yours from a dog trainer in my life.

Prager

by Prager on 15 September 2018 - 23:09

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Joanro you really made me laugh. Normally I would ignore your silly hate loaded posts but this one takes a cake and I have to respond to.
/1/Joanro: Well, Duke, what do you expect from a guy who claims that when a dog is leaping through a field, ( like a fox pronking for mice) that he is tracking a deer because deer leap through fields! Lol

Hans(Prager) : LOL. First of all, I have never said "like a fox pronking for mice" that is your creation and it has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Also for benefits of others I will say this. Dog tracking ( not training or air scenting) will go from footprint to footprint of an animal or man. FYI An experienced tracker can tell when the dog is off track or on a different track then the original track and some really experienced trackers can even identify the animal the dog is tracking at that moment by the behavior of the dog and the way the dog follows the track since each animal lays track different way. The handler of tracking dog can also tell if the many who the dog tracks was running or walking. I have learned this from coon hunters in upstate NY. When the dog goes off coon track to fresher deer track for example, then he will leap from one-foot print to another of the deer. this is quite obvious. That tells to a hunter that his dog is on the wrong track. Same applies in human tracking. I have tracked S&R style for
8 years intensively every week at least 3x often with 10 or so dogs of our S&R group and after then for decades I still do track as a hobby. Also the other day I was hiking in Prescott NF and there in the low part of a ridge is a place where deer crosses the ridge. My dog got on the deer track and start hopping from print to print until I called him off. For someone who is not ignorant of such things, this is as trivial as breathing.


/2/Or how out, while on a track, your *search and rescue* dog will help you by pulling you up a loose shale mountainside, because dogs like to pull!

Prager: Well except that I have not use the word "shale" that is exactly right. The dog will pull you along the track through difficult terrain because he can move faster than man. And yes dogs love to pull which any 1/2 ass musher (besides Joan) can attest to.
When, as you, all know (well obviously not all) when you go for walk and do not train your dominant dog then he will also pull you just because he wants to see/smell what's up ahead of him. Same as S&R dog does which we encourage them to do.

Prager

by Prager on 15 September 2018 - 23:09

@ valK well said.





 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top