Dogs raised together - Page 3

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kitkat3478

by kitkat3478 on 01 July 2016 - 21:07

Bubba IS NOT CORRECT...
I have several adults that live WITH ME, in my house, and have for several years. Related and not related. Needless to say, more than a couple are the same sex.
I leave my house with everyone inside, even my 2lb, 9 year old yorkie.
Yeah, the gripe and complain at times, a hackle here and there....
You don t find any maimed or bullied dogs in the pack. I AM THE BOSS...BOTTOM LINE, AND THEY KNOW IT!!!!
My Bullinger boy is the only one who gets seperated. After me, he is it!
Of course they all have their position within the pack, but NO ONE is left tippy toing around the others...the exception is when females in heat....then I seperate, more for reasons of MY mating matchups.
That is not their choice..

Gigante

by Gigante on 01 July 2016 - 22:07

Mainly all adults in Video below. If you raise them up together and allow fights to resolve to a tap out, its much much eaiser later on. One big mistake made is interrupting a pack order fight while they are young. Once you break up the fight unresolved it will most always need a resolution. The smallest trigger can resume the previous fight. When they grow older the danger of serious injury even death is much greator. Most fights as toddlers or teenagers are resolved with little or most often no injury. Order is usally maintained. Once one submits its faily rare for a rematch. Its alot about management if the pack order has been set.

https://www.facebook.com/DDRGermanShepherds/videos/414780628531955/

 

 


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 02 July 2016 - 01:07

Pack order is never set and there is no tap out ( what a human concept misapplied ) in the dog world. The winning dog may not kill the loser but that is not a rule as much as a guideline. It depends on the reason for the fight and the relationship between the combatants. If you allow large groups of dogs to run together in an uncontrollable environment you are a fool of the first order .. all it takes is a strange dog appearing around the corner to start an all out melee and there is no human being alive or dead who can separate two large GSD males alone without help or getting bitten when one or more of them has decided to fight to the death. If there are just two dogs fighting you may be able to keep the winner from killing the loser once the loser is choked out ( which is the best possible outcome for the loser ). Dogs that have their throats ripped out and bleed to death can not "Tap Out" except to say goodbye to the world. I have seen a lot of things from "dogs raised together" including fights where the loser was choked down to become totally unconscious but lived as well as a female skinned alive by two other females in the same large pen and she had to be euthanized.  No one can predict the outcome of a fight and therefore the best solution is never let one start or have sufficient manpower or resolve to stop it.  I have separated two mature males who were going to kill each other through good luck and knowledge combined with them not biting me but make no mistake a couple of times I thought I was going to have to kill one to spare the other.  If you have puppy neutered males that have no fight in them please be my guest and try your luck but for those with large tough GSD males and females the dangers are real and inevitable if you believe they will not fight to the death you have been misinformed.  Also don't believe any of that leader of the pack crap on the dog whisperer .. they edit out the parts where he gets bitten and the dogs get hurt.  As far as riding around even on private land with four off leash dogs ... all it takes is a couple of wolves or coyotes ... also a couple of neighbor dogs appear unexpected and you have an uncontrollable mess in the making.  On public lands and parks the dogs are usually not allowed off leash and the possibility of wild animal or other dog idiots with dogs uncontrolled make the situation even more volatile.  One dog is plenty in a public space and two of the opposite sex are plenty on private land for one human being to control if it all goes bad.


by Slaux on 02 July 2016 - 03:07

If you've ever had to break up one of these fights (I have) you'd think twice about your dogs living communally in perfect harmony. Yeah, altering them may help, but for most dogs that doesn't do much to dull them down. I've had more than one person tell me their dogs were buddies and NEVER had a problem until ONE day all hell broke loose and they had to put one or both of them down due to the injuries sustained in an all out fight to the death. In reality the clues were there, the tension was building, the owner's just missed it. We are at fault in 99.99% of these situations.

It's really all about what you feel capable of and comfortable with. Personally I always think it's a bad idea to raise two dogs together as a "pack" in all but rare circumstances. I'm with you Bubba.

Gigante

by Gigante on 02 July 2016 - 05:07

Bubba stop watching Jurassic park. Your needle stays in worst case scenario, and never moves. It has happened on earth that dog fights can end in death. Most fights don't go that way, most being the by far the greatest majority. Additionally, near never....1% a solid guess, when young. Pay attention now... when young. Again about management and skill level, something your post lacks considerably. Why you watched one of your dogs being skinned alive is a bit concerning, just saying.

While the term used "tap out" is human the application is correct. In younger pack order settling.... Dr Drama (bubba), it almost never end's with me having to break up the order adjustment. Two intact males a kangaroo and and possom, enter a bar can happen. Again management and settling early. Is it in stone, well, see term.... management.

@Slaux

"In reality the clues were there, the tension was building, the owner's just missed it. We are at fault in 99.99% of these situations"

If someone is at fault 99% of the time they should think a bit more on owning one dog let alone 4. You are correct though as stated..... management is key.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 02 July 2016 - 05:07

I think we are in danger of getting over dramatic about this (wow, never seen that before on here !Omg Smile).  Having spent a dozen years living with a 'pack' of GSDs who shared kennels

(often in groups of 3) and were out all night unsupervised in fenced areas, but also having been mentored by someone running a show breeding kennel who never sold two pups of the same sex to the same family, would rarely sell any dog to someone who already had another dog of the same sex, kennelled individuals separately 90% of the time, and when she doubled up, did not put 2 of the same sex together EXCEPT ONE VERY RARE PAIR OF HALF-SISTERS who did fulfil the "best buddies" description ... I think I can say I have seen this question from both sides.

Agree with Gigante when he says any owner who is "at fault 99% of the time" ought to be doing something different than keeping dogs - but still accept Centurian, Slaux, Bubba's caution about the (less than 99% !) extent to which humans can be the making or the death of these inter-dog relationship situations.  Shit DOES happen; in my view it doesn't happen all that often and MOST quarrels are just scraps, with very few turning nasty and getting their own 'path for the future' - but if you have one of those, you need to read it - and separate those two dogs for the future.  I did not pair overnight any dogs which I knew were prone to having arguments, for example.

I do think neutering made the difference - virtually every dog I managed at work was 'done', whereas my mentor's dogs were all entire, so obviously her greater caution applied at her kennel, and I did not go against that while I looked after them in her absence.  However  I'll also leave you with this thought:

there are no absolutes in this one;  one of England's most experienced GSD breeders kept two, much-used, STUD dogs together as her housedogs, they were about 4 years apart in age at the time I believe, and as far as I am aware she never had any problems with them.  [ I've also known LOTS of ordinary people who have kept 2 or 3 bitches together, of all sorts of breeds, usually mother & daughter(s), successfully, for decades !] 


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 02 July 2016 - 12:07

Raising dogs together is not a problem. Letting them run together is a problem when same sex pairs can get into fights or jump another dog be that dog family or stranger. If you notice .... most of the pit bull or other breed incidents involve two or more pit bulls attacking or killing another dog or a human. Puppies are less likely to fight to the death than adults and adults are less likely to kill a puppy in a fight. I had to break up a fight in which one female puppy attacked a male in a family group of 6 puppies at 6 months of age ... I had to smash her into soft ground with a knee and all of my weight to get her to stop attacking her brother as well as stopping two or three of her siblings from joining in on the losing puppy. Had the mother dog been there it likely would not have happened as she would have controlled the situation but a single human can seldom control six 6 month old puppies as well as the mother dog can.  Even with dogs respectful of human intervention each dog needs one committed and knowledgeable human to stop a fight. With four dogs you will need 4 humans to stop a fight if all four join the fight.


Gigante

by Gigante on 02 July 2016 - 13:07

Hund
"extent to which humans can be the making or the death of these inter-dog relationship situations"

One very large part of that is breaking up the natural order of order making. Once the order is set it's not that fluid. There can be triggers that need to be managed but if we allow the pack to set its hierarchy early on when there is little chance of injury then it will mostly maintain itself through most of adulthood.

One reason it may appear fluid to some is our natural intervention, unnaturally breaking up first, squabbles then hierarchy positioning. If it does not get settled early safely, then it lies just under the surface and manifests often. I have & have had dogs that cannot be out together. These dogs would rather die then submit or tap in an altercation. While positioning, when young, neither was willing to submit and their minor hierarchy squabbles then hierarchy positioning was stopped unnaturally and they cannot be trusted together. That has not been the norm.

I am much more cautious with my females then males. They fly off the handle and earn their gender name. If it was not settled with them they can never occupy space together again, no trigger needed.

Hunds comment there are no absolutes in this one;

is sound caution advice.


by Slaux on 02 July 2016 - 15:07

I think all of these Posts have merit. These are opinions based on experience and how we prefer to live with our dogs. IMO there is no SHIT. We are the SHIT. When SHIT happens, in your living room, a city street, the neighbors yard, etc. - it's not SHIT's fault - it's YOURS / MINE. I often train same sex / opposite sex - dogs together. None of my dogs live together 24/7. They are a pack, only when I say they are a pack - when I am always the leader. Whatever works for you - do.

Shawnicus

by Shawnicus on 03 July 2016 - 03:07

Thanks for all the great input but nobody actually answered my question , where when two working dogs are raised Together ( meaning almost constant contact ) will that make them doggy despite not being related and having a year in age difference and will that effect their trainability or drive ?? I am the alpha and I have no trouble setting boundaries and being the pack leader






 


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