DM Testing - Page 2

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by joanro on 29 November 2015 - 18:11

I concur, Jenni. As for never seeing dm,...I've had gsd for 21 years have never seen it, and have been around breeders who have American show gsd who never even heard of it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it certainly can't be as common as the promoters/sellers of the lab test claim.


by Sheesh on 30 November 2015 - 03:11

"Personally, I think the test is a moneymaker. " I agree totally. I think the test started out with the greatest intentions, but when the inconsistencies began to surface they were really not highlighted as they should have been. This, to me, proves that.


TIG

by TIG on 07 December 2015 - 01:12

As WR said -many many threads. The long and the short of it.

1. No research or testing was every done to my knowledge to distinguish what it known as DM in corgis and boxers from classic GSD DM even tho there are significant differences in the presentation and progress of the diseases. Thus what I say below only applies to classic GSD DM.

2. DM in GSD can present as old and slow or young and fast. O&S generally presents after age of 9 or 10 sometimes significantly after and has a slow progression (# of years) that the Clemmons protocol for high antioxidants frequently can put a postmark into for many dogs. Y& F generally before the age of 9 very quick progression often to the point of euthanasia within 6 months. The high antioxidant protocol does not seem to work. I do not believe research found or focused on any essential differences in the two types.

3. DM is a disease diagnosed in the absence of other neurological problems since it can ONLY be conclusively diagnosed after death by Necropsy. Problem is some diagnostic tools such as contrast MRI will make the disease worse if it is DM so often time the owner foregoes that test also often any neurological problem in GSD is routinely diagnosed as DM because for decades we were the only breed known to have it. Re the incidence I believe it is around 8% based on Clemmons work with dogs that had been necropsied ( Margery please correct if wrong)

4. Two major problems with the test. 1.Dogs who test affected/affected which should mean presence of the disease who do NOT have the disease and die w/o any evidence of the disease. 2. Dogs who test clear/clear meaning absence of disease but have symptoms who when necropsied prove they had the disease.

5. VERY IMPT One GSD of the original study group b4 test went public was a clear/clear with DM. There have been several more also tested clear/clear but w/ DM symptons, necopsied and DM diagnosis confirmed. The first dog in the original group DISPROVED their hypothesis FOR GSDs BUT THEY SAW $$$$ DANCING B4 THEIR EYES and went ahead presenting a fraudulent test as to GSDs to the public.

6. VERY IMPT we are artificially restricting the gene pool which is already too concentrated esp in all the bifurcatons WGWL Hiline Dutvh Czech American Belgium in breed w/ known serious health problems - epi, epilepsy, heart, immune etc etc. BASED ON A TEST W/ NO scientific validity.

7. IMHO and only imho the money motive is confirmed by the marketing of this test to all breeds when less than a handful are even known to have a disease that may have elements of or look somewhat similiar to DM. Check out the # of dogs just on the ofa db (there are other listings as well). They have made millions - all off a bogus test. Shame on them and Shame on all who promote the use of this bad science.

added 8. As noted in an earlier post this is NOT a DM test. It is a test for the SOD1 gene which had not been proven by any reliable scientific means to produce this disease. Whether it is related in some fashion may be open to debate BUT no.4 puts some pretty big holes in even that.


by old shatterhand on 07 December 2015 - 02:12

TIG, you are 100% right.That's why I never done it. When you look at the best dogs in the world sold from Germany or Europe to China, Japan,South America for $200,000.00 and up none of them including VA dogs or top V rated had DM test done. When you looking on some ads on PDB you see breeders who don't have on their breeding stock hips , elbows evaluated for generations, neither any titles nor temperament tests .Those are the breeders who always clame that the parents are tested and are free of DM. Those breeders are just trying to scare the public and get rid of competition,and in many cases this work. Many people will rather buy a puppy from parents which are DM tested than from title parents with all hips elbows clearences . The test is proved to be unreliable by many, why bother and do it ?


by Bavarian Wagon on 10 December 2015 - 00:12

Delayed response but...

The way I read the OP was that the testing was to be done to the puppies themselves. There has been a lot of information on the validity of the test given in this thread, but I still believe you'd have issues selling a puppy that came back "at risk." It would basically be like selling a puppy that has proven HD. You're not going to get full price, you'll be lucky to get any amount of money. On top of that you'll be known as someone who has bred known carrier to carrier which is still questionable at this point. The funny thing is, breeding a carrier to an unknown dog is perfectly acceptable by the market at this point and that is something that I don't understand at all because the excuse for that breeding is basically ignorance or "lack of available information" yet the information is easily attained within a week or two. But as to the puppy...it has a very limited market. Anyone that might think about breeding in the future won't be interested and most "pet people" will also see it as a dog that is bound to get sick so why would they buy it when they have thousands of other options out there. This is where the "lack of information" and the inherent risk of buying a puppy comes into play. Want a guaranteed healthy dog? Buy an older animal that is tested. A puppy though, comes with risk, and people accept that risk. Although it sounds great that you'd want to give your customers the most information possible, you're bound to get stuck with unsellable puppies at some point due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I'm also not saying I have any issues with carrier/carrier or carrier/unknown types of breedings. I'm in the camp of the test is useless at this point and shouldn't be used to make any kind of decision. Unfortunately, I'm much more knowledgeable in this area and have vastly different values than the majority of puppy buyers out there who are basically focused on health and health alone. I think the "negative" publicity that stems from the test...such as breeding carriers or not testing at all is a terrible thing for breeders everywhere. In my experience, very few people care at this point, and most are internet warriors that hop onto a forum or two and are taught by other internet warriors about the test or read a horror story about a 12 year old dog that died from what was thought to be DM but was never necropsied or diagnosed as such. But those people come calling, or emailing, and end up with a negative opinion of a breeder who doesn't test, or who breeds to an untested stud dog. The opinion might then be told to others, and that is an unfortunate thing for breeders everywhere.





 


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