WGWL Service Dog breeder, Pedigree analysis help-"lord"? - Page 3

I see no reason to focus on strictly service dogs and not the entire dog's versatility as was intended from the founder of the breed. After all, no litter produced for any purpose will have pups that are able to fulfill that role anyways, some show litters may be better suited for pet homes, or some working litters may not have the drive for the job or stability needed. I believe in producing litters that are set up for success in a variety of roles and allocating pups to the role best suited for that individual dog. That doesn't mean you can't reliably produce service dogs from such litters, IMO. 

Tiktok service dog videos are a whole hot mess I don't even care to get into. Lots of people getting poorly bred dogs being misled by trainers in it for the $$ or DIYing it with little training doing a disservice to the industry, the dogs, and themselves. There is clearly a need for this, and I believe that SD handlers should have the option of choosing a breed other than goldens, labs, and poodles. I'm not suggesting this will be an easy or short term task, but I think it's certainly possible. Fidelco is doing it, among many others. I want to enhance access for the public as well as preserve solid temperaments, stability, cognition, genetic diversity, health, and longevity of the breed. There is no more versatile role for a dog than that of a service dog; and the german shepherd is intended to be a versatile breed, suited especially for more active folks.

I think a lot of the reasons soft dogs are bred for service work in many programs is due to their short turnaround time nessacary for waitlists, as well as the specific training methods used, oftentimes without the use of aversive tools such as pinch or e collars. Training this way certianly has it's merits, and is good for PR, but has the side effect of breeding very soft dogs, many which even have a genetic mutation that causes the inability to feel full, as a result of breeding for excessive food motivation to accomodate the need for more rewards.

Forgive me if I come off as arrogant, I don't think i'm god's gift to the German shepherd breed or anything like that, nor do I desire to be a world famous kennel, but I don't think breeding GSD for service dogs is out of the scope of reality. You've done it yourself as you said, and my dog's breeder has as well, which is why I desire to carry on those lines along with her guidance. I am certainly open to learning from those more experienced than me, that's why I came here after all-I just think that there are a lot of things in this industry that could be changed for the better with a more open mind and different perspectives.

I'm inclined to think that Nicole might get more sympathy with her specific viewpoint on versatility if she lived in Europe, where - as I have pointed out many times here on PDB - there is often more focus on the 'whole dog' than in the US, where the split between Working and S/L has made it inevitable that many breed enthusiasts tend to IMO over-emphasise the difficulty in finding sufficient drive in a Showbred of any type. I think this may be (however subtly) influencing the attitudes of the bulk of US Service Dog Trainers / producers. And maybe recipients. Which in turn may be part of why some programmes are failing.

Example: In the UK we have the Guide Dogs Association for 'seeing eye' dogs [and, more recently, a variety of other kinds of Support Dogs] which - having started out using nothing but GSDs in the very early days, now breed / train / place Sheps as less than a 1/4 of the overall output. But there is still demand for them, from blind & partially sighted partners who are accustomed to GSDs, more physically suited by height and length of stride, or more temperamentally in tune with a breed that is unlike the bulk of 'softer' Labs or Goldens or mixes of those. Demand that exceeds supply. Hence the creation of Pathfinders a few years ago, specialising in GSDs as working Guide Dogs. So far, successfully. So far, mainly with dogs from WGSL breeding.

Here we do not train our guiding dogs in any Protection element, it isn't seen as part of their role; this reflects our legislation and our expectations of companion dogs of all kinds. Again, American attitudes seem a bit different.

So it IS about knowing what you are working with.
 

Some service dogs need to be trained for personal protection. There are people, who need and benefit from having a medical or psychiatric service dog, who also have a need for a serious protection dog.

For those, who need a dual-purpose medical or psychiatric service dog/real personal protection dog, the key is finding the dog with the necessary drives, temperament, and abilities to do both jobs. The dog must also have the intelligence and initiative to switch instantaneously back and forth between the two roles. A good off switch is absolutely critical for this. Then the training of the dog and the handler. There are some people, who have dual needs that will never be filled because they (not the dog) are incapable of learning or doing the split-second timing, control and decision-making involved with having a dual-role dog. If, during training, the handler demonstrates inability to handle the dual roles, he or she needs to be washed out and a different dog (or perhaps two single-purpose dogs) selected for him or her, and training of the handler and each dog separately and as a 3-member team. The handler must be capable of the dog(s).

"Some service dogs need to be trained for p.p." GSCat -
I'm sure that may be true; however it has not been judged to be necessary here. I was not giving any opinion on that, one way or the other; & we know there are still some differences between the two cultures :-)

I sometimes think there are enough problems with some assorted support dog users (any breed) in getting them to know what they are doing and how best to work in a team with their dog, without adding that sort of extra responsibility !

Hund, some of what you say is some things I have no experience in (as far as service) but have always been curious about.

I have a difficult time imagining a guiding eye dog with high prey drive, or a civil dog interacting closely with the public.

anyway, nicole, good luck with your pursuit.

Well, quite, Rik - & hard to imagine most of the many types of Service / Support dogs that are not from Herding or Guarding breeds having such PP expectations placed on them !

All comes back down to that combination of innate genetic suitability, and training, which sometimes results in the unusual examples (eg Jack Russell's doing Schutzhund), I suppose.

@Nicole - couple of other things have occurred to me, that have not yet been raised by anyone here:

1 Can't find it now ( I looked back 10 pages of ads) but I'm pretty sure I saw [last week ?] one ad for a Stud that was being touted as a producer for service animals, much on the lines you are considering. Maybe keep an eye for a repeat or similar ad, and contact the member(s), see if they will tell you how it works out for them ? Could give you a wider (national / international) audience ?

2 Have you had a think about possible changes to the way your dog interacts with you, if you go ahead with your plan for him ? Sometimes (and I am not claiming this as a universal truth, its just that I have seen some cases where it happened) a male who is allowed to mate one or more bitches changes a little temperamentally, or becomes far more focussed on finding further mating opportunities that he is no longer so attentive to his owner. I think some service dog programs only use 'non-operational' males at stud, for that reason. I have absolutely no idea if that is also true of dogs used in AI progams, as I have no direct experience of artificial insemination collection. But could you then manage / live with that, if it happens ?

Okay. So I went back six generations, looking at the dogs. You have https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5427-lord-vom-gleisdreieck?_v=20160125004434 in the sixth generation. He's a well known dog. But because he's so far back in the pedigree, HE doesn't contribute anything to the gene pool of your dog. HOWEVER - his grandson, does offer traits to the gene pool. So you need to research this dog more.https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/search.html?s=lump-vom-gleisdreieck
Also you have https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=509439-kismets-sight-for-sore-eyes?_v=20210509163947 twice in the pedigree. Dallas sired https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=512996-alfaros-martina-mcbride?_v=20090922002749 & https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=644364-laxfields-tony-soprano?_v=20100724213617.
This dog https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=17830-don-vom-haus-iris?_v=20121019223948 is also found twice in the pedigree. But again so far back, HE offers nothing to the gene pool. So again. Let's look at his grandchildren: his granddaughter, https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=324197-gela-vom-felsenschlo?_v=20121019223949 & his grandson: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=311574-eddy-vom-felsenschlo?_v=20121019223949.What do these two dogs offer to the gene pool? More research is involved here.
Another dog who appears twice in the sixth generation is: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=96862-jette-vom-potsdamerland?_v=20160616191906
Again - let's look at the grandchildren: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=370471-eliese-vom-ziegenhainer-tal?_v=20160911081906 (granddaughter) & Eddy vom Felsenschloß (grandson).

By studying the dogs way back in the sixth generation, you'll have answered questions as to why the dogs appearing the third exist and what they've contributed to your dog's health, temperament, drive, etc. What you're wanting to know is: 1.) Health in these dogs. 2.) Domininant traits/genes. 3.) Recessive traits/genes. 4.) Temperament of these dogs. 

Many people don't realize these factors.

*Notice: Eddy is the grandson of Don & Jette. These are not coindenses as to why dogs appear multiple times in a pedigree.

As for Service Dogs and Personal Protection:

No, just no. It is extremely unfair to the dog to expect them to be a personal protection dog and a service dog. It is way too much responsibility and can get the dog shot in situations where the handler needs medical attention and the dog stands over the handler guarding while EMT's can't approach.

Also, per ADA, Service Dogs cannot be Personal Protection Dogs and it's truly unfair to the dogs.
Sport Protection is ritualized training, in a set setting, not generalized to public spaces. Whereas Personal Protection Dogs have to be generalized in all areas, with just enough suspicion to make their own decisions to decide what is and whats not a threat.

[agree with B.E.]