WGWL Service Dog breeder, Pedigree analysis help-"lord"? - Page 1

Hello all,

I am new to this forum and I am posting because I am planning to stud my dog (https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=3116523-lechoshlaw-vom-hilla?_v=20211103161521)
out in the coming year or so once OFA hips/elbows are completed and he has passed additional temperament testing (GSDCA, for CHIC). He is doing OFA cardiac/patellas today, embark has been submitted, work is going well for us and I would like to start finding a mate for him. We are competing in dock diving and hoping to enter nationals after this December's nationals qualifying event, but I do not count that as a real "sport", it's just for fun and to prove he is reasonably functional and athletic.

He has been working as my service dog successfully for a while now, and we are beginning training in wildlife detection work of invasive species. His dams' litter mate is at pennvet successfully doing ovarian cancer detection work, so I expect his puppies would have the aptitude as well. This will be my first time breeding dogs, so I would like as much help as possible; his breeder is always welcome to give advice but I like to hear other perspectives as well. (Please forgive the photo on his listing, it's just a placeholder until he passes his testing which I will then update to a good stacked photo)

I would like to breed for puppies that would be suitable to work as a mobility or PTSD service dog or detection dog prospects. so in a dam I would like to see a history of successful working dogs in some avenue as well as proper temperament test and of course full health testing (No preliminary or fast results please). For example, IPO3 + Therapy dog international or pet partners work, or SAR + ATTS would be ideal. I prefer to mate him with a WGWL or WGSL dam but would like to avoid the exaggerated over angulated rears that are seen in some show lines. No offense to those that like that, It's just not what i'm looking for personally. I would also like to avoid heavily linebred dogs or those with a high COI; preserving genetic diversity is important to me and bitches with embark low COI are highly preferred. I am located in SE USA but would be willing to travel for a mating. I will not ship semen, I want to see the premises of the dam and speak with the kennel owner etc. I am not sure where to even start looking for what I am looking for, as my needs are a bit more specific and exclude a lot of strictly show line or strictly sport breeders; after all why would a bitch's owner want to breed a DDR x ASL stud if they want to strictly remain WGWL. To me, lines are not as important as preserving the overall health of the breed and producing suitable working dogs but I am having a hard time finding those that agree with me on that topic and also perform the health tests and temperment evaluations and not just "oh the sire had IPO3 and hips" but not doing anything on their own dog.

If possible, I would also like to hear from those of you that are familiar with DDR and ASL dogs regarding my dog's pedigree; are there any red or green flags that I should be aware of? I know my dog is distantly related to "Lord vom gleisdreieck" and has other dogs from that same kennel far back in his pedigree, what can you tell me about that? I have heard this dog was used a lot as a sire.

Thanks in advance!

This dog is just a little over a year old and fully working as SD?
Like your dog has a CGC and a Trick Dog Novice and works as "SD" but you want an IPO3 on a female for her to be worthy for your Trick Dog Novice dog? 

 

 

 

I don't know that I would be looking to advertise any dog at stud while I did not have his Hips and Elbows - perhaps you have at least had Prelims done and just do not mention that is what you are awaiting at the moment (as BE points out, he's awful young still,  even though 17 months is a bit over a year. ) ? Tempting fate, a little ! Has he also been tested re Haemophilia, and DM, since you do not mention those basics either ? In terms of trainability, manageability and temperament, I'd say (purely IMHO, you can take or leave it) that you have enough 'Working' blood in the genetics for what you are using / seeking to produce - so this is one of the instances where the crossing of lines will be a good idea. But having said that, you are right: you should therefore not be expecting any of the offspring he produces to be of Show quality, no matter what the breeding of the females put to him, at least not for a generation or two. Pups of correct ShowLine quality take some forward planning; whereas what you (and presumably the owners of the females) would be looking to produce would be functional dogs that are obviously of the GSD breed. But they may very well be lacking in conformational niceties. Informed bitch owners will be aware of this. On the W/L side, I'm sure some might argue that Lord was over used !

So I'm not sure quite what is expected of a 'better', stacked, photo for his pedigree page ? Mind you (and again this is just personal preference) I would like to see another shot, but this time without so much gear around his neck.

Your intentions re properly checking out any females, and their homes, are laudable. But you should also be arming yourself with what to expect from the other owners in the way of health testing, both in genetic problems and anti-bacterial ones. I completely agree that you should insist on the same basic test results that you have on your own dog, minimum.

In terms of finding the right audience, you might investigate service dog training schools or other organisations within the distance you are prepared to travel to see these females 'in the flesh' and see if  they have magazines or FB etc pages you can get advertising space in. Also local dogsport and ring-training Clubs may have similar facilities, or Clubhouse noticeboards you could use.  Talking to people involved in any of these will start to get the word out about your dog's availability, even before you post any ads. Be prepared for some reluctance to use your dog, as he is as yet unproven; and if you do not have any previous credentials as a dog breeder you are at a disadvantage. You will need to be sure to sell his achievemements so far as your service dog, and his uncle or auntie's work in cancer-detection !

Maybe also as a newbie, start to familiarise yourself with usual / good practice re: Stud fees, puppies in lieu, matters of Sales Agreements and warranties.  Good luck.

Welcome to our site Nicole.

OP wrote"  I am planning to stud my dog out in the coming year or so once OFA hips/elbows are completed and he has passed additional temperament testing (GSDCA, for CHIC). He is doing OFA cardiac/patellas today, "

So I think that answers the hip/elbow question guys.

Welcome to the site, which is an excellent place to learn if you're able to toughen up your skin enough to hear truths that may be contrary to what you were expecting. Most of the folks here are bluntly honest, and that can put some newcomers off--but the majority who will respond to posts like yours aren't intending to be ignorant, rude or cruel, but rather are hoping to assist newcomers in avoiding the very mistakes they themselves have made when they were newcomers to the breed, the work and/or breeding.

Your ambitions are impressive, if somewhat premature at the moment. As Barenfangs Erbe noted, at 18 months, your dog is still quite young, and while he may be adequately filling the role of Service Dog for you at present, the world is a big place with a lot of things that can ruin a dog that is not 1000% rock-solid in his strength of nerve for service work in a single incident. It is too soon to know for certain that your boy truly has what it takes to have a career as a full time, out-in-public SD for you, and until you can establish that, no one is going to take a chance of breeding their female to him, regardless of how good his pedigree looks to be. The term Service Dog is quite expansive, too--are you seeking to breed for mobility-assist SDs, medical- alert SDs, hearing SDs? Each type of assistance one is seeking to use a dog for will have some different factors that would be focused on when determining if a dog might be able to pass on its abilities for the task. Some skills may be found in multiples within a single dog because they build on traits that are hard-wired into their breed, or can be taught if the dog's biddability is strong, while others do not appear to be teachable and rely on a dog's individual inherent sensitivity.

Does the breeder you obtained your dog from breed specifically with an eye toward producing service dogs? Aside from a conformation title or points, the parents of your dog have several "fun" titles which certainly tap into some degree of a dog's willingness to work with the handler, but aren't really very useful measures of a dog's working abilities in a way that would help sort out which dogs ought to be considered as breeding candidates. Likewise, dock diving, while a fun way to help keep one's dog fit and a great way to have fun with dogs that enjoy swimming and retrieving, isn't a credential that a knowledgeable owner is going to place much weight on when selecting a stud dog for his breeding female. That a dog has a working-sport title isn't automatically an indication of the dog's suitability as a breeding candidate, either--there are many routes to those titles, and when it comes to IPO/SchH breeders will often cede biddability for more power in the protection phase, which would be detrimental if one were breeding for service dogs.

As for your question regarding the specific lines and specific dogs in your boy's pedigree, yes, Lord v Gleisdreieck was a popular stud dog in his time, and was used as much as was permitted by the SV [the organization limits the number of breedings a stud can have in a calendar year, in an effort to encourage breeders to diversify and to select a stud that best compliments their female as opposed to the one that was the big winner for the year before, or the one that's been winning the most that year]. That said, Lord v Gleisdreieck is so far back in the lineage that expressions of his DNA contributions to the dog in front of you will be muted by that of the dogs much closer up in the pedigree.

I think one of the most important things you'll need to keep at the forefront of your mind, if and when you do start breeding dogs, is the washout rate in SD work is astronomically high; few dogs that look to be well-suited to the work at 18 months of age are found still in use as such at 36 months, and fewer still at 48 months. It is a simple truth that the majority of dogs out of a litter bred specifically to work as SD of some type will ultimately find themselves as pets instead; either because it is obvious during the early puppy development stages that they're not going to make good SD prospects on temperament alone [too soft, too reactive, too anxious, too indifferent to cooperating with humans], or because they wash-out before they're two years of age due to health issues, or because they wash-out due to inability to handle the pressure of the work in public. So when you breed with the intent of creating service dogs, make sure you don't produce dogs that won't be able to adapt to the sedentary life of most pets.

There are several SD handlers, some of them also breeders, who know first-hand that handlers who elect to start out with a puppy will raise and train up numerous prospects before they finally manage to find one that can withstand the physical and mental pressures that SD work places upon a dog. Even those who were experienced dog breeders prior to developing a need for a service dog often find it difficult to produce dogs that are suitable for their need from their own breeding program.

In GSDs, dogs that do well in SAR or tracking, or those with strong but balanced herding instincts tend to fare better in SD work, from my observation; dogs with sport titles [IPO, KNPV, Ringsport] can also do well if the breeders behind the lines select for a balanced dog rather than putting the bitework above the other aspects of the work.

Because you've got a male dog, there's no reason to rush into breeding before you've been able to put a few years of working mileage on him, since he can remain viable as a breeding candidate well into his senior years, and even longer if you collect and store semen from him. The health clearances are great, and absolutely a necessity, but it will be equally important for you to be able to show a bitch owner that your boy has the solidness of nerve it will take to do the service work over years, not months, before one is likely to take a chance on dedicating one reproductive year of their female's life to the experiment.

@Baerenfangs erbe (Sorry if this is not the correct way to reply, like I said i'm new to the forum)

I am aware the standard age of matriculation from training is around 2 for service dogs. His training began at 8 weeks of age and continued under the guidance of a CPDT running a service dog nonprofit in my town, he is unusually young to be working but he has excelled in it and was ready for graduation even before we officially graduated him from the program. I know there are a lot of people that have the opinion that working a dog young may "burn them out" but I have not ever asked him to do anything beyond his capabilities.

Not sure why "SD" is in quotes; he is trained above and beyond the legal ADA requirements and was evaluated by a professional trainer who worked with him from a very young age. I have been assisting with training SD since high school when I volunteered for an ADI program so this is not something that I am just messing about with. There is a need for service dog candidates of the GSD breed and I am hoping to fill that need. I am planning for the future, not actively advertising him as a stud; which is why I posted this to learn more about his pedigree. I would not expect the owner of a dam to accept a stud with just TKN, dock diving titles and CGCA..hence why we are still continuing training in other venues! :)

He is DM and MDR1 clear by parentage which will also be verified in his embark testing. 
 

@Hundmutter

Thank you so much for your input, that is all exactly what I was looking for.
Although I do not focus on conformation or care much to, It is tradition to post a stacked photo and conformation should not be completely thrown out the window, so I will make sure to update that, but like I said I am not advertising him yet so it's not a priority. I am just trying to learn more about his pedigree from other eyes besides just his breeder. He is DM/MDR1/HE clear by parentage as well as verified via embark which is processing currently.

I would definitely expect DM/MDR1/HD/ED at a minimum as well as brucellosis testing on both my dog & the dam. I did see that name pop up a lot which is why I wanted to know more. I agree mixing lines is best for genetic diversity & not doubling down on less attractive traits, which is why I am looking for a WGWL or WGSL. I do need to get more involved physically, it is just hard for me with my schedule. I reached out so my local GSDCA clubs and will plan to attend some meetings. I do not do bite sports because he is a SD so that is why I have not really gotten involved with that side of things. The wildlife detection folks I am in touch with do not train their own dogs, but handle purchased dogs so no dice there either. It seems in the day of the internet, if you aren't already in the know how it can be tricky finding the right people. I am definitely working hard to make sure all my ducks are in a row before I ever reach out to stud him, I'm not in a hurry I just want to learn some more and make connections in the breed. If he fails his health tests and I never stud him out, at least I know people and have some folks to train with, nbd. Once I have the land, know-how and space, I would like to eventually start a more official kennel and get credentials such as "bred with heart, breeder of merit" etc. but that will have to wait many years because I plan to attend veterinary school soon.

@hexe

Thanks for your input as well, I agree that different service dogs have different types of traits one is looking for; I apologize if I forgot to specify but I would be breeding for mobility and PTSD service dogs. His breeder does focus on breeding for service dogs and his dam was a breeder dog for a guide dog school called occupaws, before retiring from breeding. This is part of why I feel his genetics are valuable to the GSD service dog population, as guide dog schools are the most rigorous type of training a service dog could go through. My dog has proven himself as well in his short time working so far we have traveled on domestic flights together, attended dog shows, theme parks, college life, research both in the field and the lab, etc. and I do not anticipate any issues with his working career. If there was a reason he may wash out, it is likely to have already cropped up. He has learned how to open and close doors and drawers, retrieve my medication from the other room and bring it to me every day, find my car, assist me up stairs, stand behind me to block people from coming up, remain stable while I am not etc. He has even been nearly attacked by other dogs while on the job and recovered beautifully from such incidents, this is not a DIY trained dog that only goes to petco and the mall. I do understand that shit happens and dogs may not mature to be what we hoped for or believed they would be, which is another reason I do not plan to breed him anytime soon, I am just trying to prepare. I cannot emphasize that enough!! this is not a stud advert!

titles can be deceiving, especially if earned at the club level. and I said "can be".

if there are training clubs near you, I would suggest you get involved and meet dogs first hand which would allow you to access their value to what you are seeking to do. other than that your best bet will be associating with people and dogs involved in what you are trying to do.

I am familiar with several of the dogs later back on the ASL side, one kennel I did several co-breedings with.

there are people on her who do service dogs.

good luck

I think a bitch with IPO3 (and probably IPO1 or IPO2) would have too high drives that you would not want passed to puppies intended for use as medical or psychiatric service dogs. If you're looking for titles to demonstrate a suitable temperament and ability to learn, a bitch with CGC/Community Canine/Urban Canine titles would likely possess and pass on the drives, aptitudes, and temperament necessary for the work you envision for the puppies. For cancer, etc. detection, Scent Work title(s).

From a purely practical financial standpoint, it is unlikely someone with an IPO3 (or IPO1 or IPO2) or PSA3 (or PSA1 or PSA2) bitch would want to breed her to a non-IPO/non-PSA- titled stud. IPO and PSA titling takes a lot of time, effort, and significant money. Not that many bitches earn IPO3 (or because of heat cycles preventing participation in performance events and whelping litters after earning IPO1 or IPO2, so their puppies bring a lot of money in sport and working dog circles. It is also unlikely that you would be able to breed to a working therapy or service or odor-detection bitch because of the interruption of her duties. A Scent Work titled bitch that's being used for breeding might not be available for other-than-SAR or law enforcement-intended puppy breeding. Remember, too, that AKC only allows 5 litters to be registered per bitch.

It may be useful to contact organizations, which provide medical or psychiatric service dogs for information regarding breeding programs and what they look for in studs, bitches, and puppies. If you're interested in breeding puppies specifically for use as PTSD service dogs, contact the Veterans' Administration (VA). It will likely take several calls and transfers through the VA maze to get to the right person to get the information you need. Disabled American Veterans (DAV) may also be able to help.

Things that will make your dog more attractive to stud for medical and psychiatric dog-intended puppies are for your dog to have earned the three levels of CGC and Scent Work title(s). If your dog is working as your medical, psychiatric, or PTSD service dog, make sure you have copies of all training and certifications from wherever you got the dog. There may also be something in the contract that prohibits you from breeding your service dog. If you did all of the training for your dog to be a working service dog, you need copies of all training, your logbook(s), and preferably a recognized third-party evaluator that will verify your dog's performance (in writing).  Although ADA does not require the last for uses as a service dog, it would/could be important to the bitch's owner and potantial oraganizationagency involved with training, certifying, and placing the puppies.
 

You need drive for service dogs. an IPO3 dog is not too high i drive. What you need is balance, confidence, stability with a solid temperament. Drive is essential for SD's. Drive isn't the same as energy. You need medium energy, medium to high drives depending on what type of SD we are talking about.