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Looking for info on Pohranicni Stranze (61 replies)
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Hello
I am trying to learn more about pedigrees and lines of dogs, so if anyone knows Pohranicni Stranze, Dero Cega and Gita Salrak (23082/86CKSP) please let me know! I am trying to learn by using Hubbies GSD. His pedigree can be found under:
Leopold von Lebold-Saiz
Thanks a bunch
Claudia |
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"z Pohranicni straze" is a trade name of Czech border patrol. "z" means from. The Czech government does not breed under this name any more but controls it. (Nobody else can use it). First Czech dogs "z Pohranicni straze" were imported into USA by me :) about 30 years ago. Dogs were not registrable with AKC since the "z Pohranicni straze" breeding was registered by government entity and AKC recognizes only dogs registered by person.This also had been corrected by me and M Drew. Since we provided letter that proved to AKC who was actual breeder/person in thisd breeding program was. It was my friend Jiri Novotny. Jiri and I are now preserving,promoting, breeding, importing, selling and training these bloodlines.
Here I go tooting my horn again. But it's all the honest to God truth.
Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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| Prager since you have the honor of knowing a person that been breeding some of the word best working dogs, would you be so kind as to share his idealogy behind his breeding methods. I myslef am big fan of the dogs that were registred under that trade name. Thanks. |
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| Wow, Thanks for the website link, I now know where my next dog is coming from |
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It is hard to mimic what we are doing. It is mainly based on knowledge of the dogs and bloodlines and few basic rules and gut feeling which stems out from long years of passion for working dogs and experience. Here are the some general rules:
1. keep in mind the original purpose of the breed. WORK!
2. breed only the type of the dogs which fit that purpose. There is high emphasis on type breeding.
3.realize that there are no perfect dogs thus ->
4.make sure that you compliment ,or as I like to say dove tail, the pedigrees where you compensate for problems on one ped with virtues on the other. THUS LEARN TO COMPROMISE.
On the other hand.
5.Don't be afraid to take a risk and line breed on spectacular dogs even so you know that there may be a problem there.From such breeding be ready to eliminate the pups which do not fit your expectation and display the known problem. There will be some which do not display such problem select those for future breeding. Out cross it on the dog which is known to compensate on the known problem and also support the virtue which we desire of such breeding. If it does not work be not afraid to dump the line.
6.There is a strong accent on type breeding. Typy studly studs are the foundation. These are bred to strong females.
7.Know the virtues and problems of all the dogs on the pedigree.
THOROUGH knowledge of dogs on the pedigree is of out most importance.
8.Know the virtues and problems of each blood line.
9. Do not breed for extremes.
10.Do not get stuck on single one quality (like hips) by omitting the other trades.
There are two type of quality breedings.
1. Commercial. Where you find complimenting matched pair and keep breeding them until the end and produce consistent litters. This enhances the overall quality of the pool of GSD.
2. Progressive. Where you keep improving on the big picture of working dog. As soon as you get such improved pup, take it and "run" with it and continue to progress to next combination.
These are general rules.
Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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| When researching a dog in a pedigree, how do you go about that? I am always trying to learn about dogs in my dogs pedigrees but the info that I am getting is rather limited, as well is there a source when I can look for what the dogs actually produced? I am not a breeder, but I figure if I ever decide I would prefer to be ready rather than shoot in the dark. ;) |
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To acquire the knowledge of the genetics of each dog on the pedigree is a problem. That is why it is very hard for people here to reproduce what we are doing. Many people think that if they buy excellent male and excellent female that they will reproduce excellent pups. Nothing is further from the truth. You need to "compliment" the pedigrees. I am constantly collecting data on different dogs and am traveling to Czech to see them in person and am consulting with Jiri my and his ideas on different combinations. My partner Jiri is breed warden and GSD judge and knows most dogs personally . The only way to do this properly for people like you is to buy from us or someone who is knowledgeable and willing to do this for you a genetically matched pair. I'll do it for my clients. Jiri is not that keen on doing it. Europeans are very secretive about this even among themselves. I am willing to do it only because I like GSD to be a great dog. I have started many breeding programs for other kennels.
Prager(Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
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I am glad than that there are people like you that are willing to help out. Withholding information or knowledge, is just not doing justice to the breed. After all that's why we have education system in place for humans, to learn from others rather than start from a scratch every time, humans would not progress if we would not share are knowledge, and this might be a very thing that is leading to issues within the breed. People will breed weather we like it or not, I would not want to do through trail and error.
Now you did bring out a good point, I understand that not every dog can reproduce a dog of his potential or better, but my believe is; you have to start with a good dog to begin, even better a pair of good dogs, and than research their genetic make up to determine where faults my lay in order to improve on that dog, what is your take on that?
Since you seen quite knowledgeable with regards to "z PS" lines would you be so kind as to share some information on
Tom Z ps,
&
Cordon An-Sat
I would really love to learn as much as I can with regards to these two great dogs.
Thank you for any valuable information you are willing to provide.
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Cordon is hard to fault.
Tom Z PS line produced more bad hips and elbows then I like. He was a great worker very popular for that reason. I would not line breed on him. He is OK to have on the pedigree brings hardness and workability. But only as far as you know about his hips and elbows production. That is why you will not see too many linebreedings on Tom. Tom is son of Cordon and Cordon had no such problem. Thus if you look down on the mother of Tom; Axa z Blatenskeho Zamku her grand mother was Klara z Pohranicni straze. She was the culprit on bad hips and elbows. She was a supper worker very super hard bitch valued by border patrol for that and that is what Tom was so too. That is why she was popular and more importantly major studs who came out of her. Like Tom and super extra hard Gero z Blatenskeho zamku(again from Klara z PS) and others.
Gero z Blatenskeho zamku.
 Tom z PS. .jpg) Cordon
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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Prager
what do you think of this line breeding
5 - 4............................................. in SG Arko Honest CS
4 - 3............................................. in VELMI DOBRY Heky od Tepleho pramena
5 - 4............................................. in V Saba z Klemova dvora
5 - 5,5........................................... in Bero vom Friedersdorfer Flur
I am mostly interested in Heky and Arko. A friends Dual purpose k-9 is line bred on Hely and Arko. Also info on Heky is hard to find can you tell me about him?
Thanks
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 Iwo von der Buscheckeis in this pedigree about 5x
Aida vom Dukenheim:(Xena?)
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/475396.html Let me say first.
I can go only on what you get me as a pedigree material.
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND!!!:
Here is a example how pedigree data base info on pedigrees is not reliable. For example: Ben z Bolfu is HD 2/0 And not A(What ever 1/2 is?)You need ORIGINAL copy of the pedigree IN ORDER TO EVELUATE THE PEDIGREES. I did changed Ben's hips to equivalent of a noch cugelassen. This wbsite does not provide for Czech evaluation.
We have here example of linebreeding and even inbreeding done well if you like super driven dog This pedigree is based on WUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1
SG Grim z Pohraniční stráže CS
1992
SZ 9110595
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Undrescored by inbreeding on ZM ZVV1 FH2 SCHH3
Iwo von der Buschecke
and othe rexcellent driven dog
Like the pedigree if you like high driven dogs.:1. Ben z Esagilu -> Grim, Orry -.> Grim and Athos ->Grim connection(Athos was my dog. As you can see I took his pic in fromt of Sahuaro) Athos is who is who in z Pohranicni straze(z PS). He is pedigree wise perfect. Kaso z Ps linebreeding is good. Kasso was also driven dog small, died young of tortion.
Tanja La Grua has inbreeding on Iwo von der Buschecke and Mery z PS. That probably digged out some HD gene and show itself at Tanja La Grua HD B
Then we have
Klara :Poor Hips, elbows, super hard popular bitch.
I would not linebreed any more on Grim and eliminate anything with Klara. Through selecting breeding the bad hips were pushed down but may come up if you let it.
This is all I can do today. Sorry guys, have to go claen dog shit.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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Grim z PSWUSV 1997, IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1 Kkl 2 |
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Very interesting thread, and thank you Prager for giving us some of your first-hand knowledge of Czech GSDs :) I always like to read about the Czech dogs, especially anything I can find on Gero....my dog looks an awful lot like him (except for being small..I've heard that Gero was on the large side for GSD? My dog is 65 lbs) and takes after the Czech side of his pedigree in temperament.
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I know multiple dogs carried the name Tom z Pohranicni straze, but this is not the one most of us are familiar with. |
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| Thank you prager, much appreciated. One thing learned today for me, line breeding on tom bad idea ;) |
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daryll thats a pic of Ikar , son of tom grandson of cordon
the other tom is a grimm son , thats the only two I know of
I agree with most things what prager says about breeding , but respectfully disagree about linebreeding to certain dogs
you certainly can linebreed on certain dogs and loose the trait you dont want from the dog your linebreeding on , that is one of the great benefits of linebreeding , if you know how to use it |
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I will beg to differ with a few things and first, Tom z Pohranicni Straze hips and elbows scoring I have not seen the bad hips and elbows at all and I am one that 1. has visited czech and slovakia numerous times and detailed hundreds of dogs along with being invited to review production in the Policia kennels. The Blatenskeho zamku line does not show that to the extent either. I have the numbers to be statistically significant on this.. There are a few things that Hans is not sharing nor will I, (thank you Hans) of lines not to cross and so perhaps that is where people are seeing some problems. (If you have ever seen a linebreeding on Mink, you understand) A few of us that have taken the huge time and energy to learn this the old fashion way ( not by "internet research") and don't expect to give it up.
Some dogs did not produce at all here in the U.S and those are two of the dogs out west, (not with you Hans)
I can appreciate what Hans is saying on many counts but the information and data I hold on Tom and most of the Blatenskekho lines specifically shows an amazing number of good soundness. (how was he crossed to get the bad stuff?)
Next, the Czech dog that we often see now has very much changed from the dog of the early 90's. I'm sure I can get some agreement here from you old timers like me. The new style dog was bred for sport purposes too and so more prey introduced and easier handlability. (I think that is a word!)
Maintaining old line bred dogs from Agar z Pohranicni Straze who was one of the last group to train in the Pohranicni Straze kennel before the country split in '91. He is also by Gomo von Schiefferschloss, one of the foundation sires for the modern Czech German Shepherd, at that time. Different work dog entirely from the sportier types today, not that the sportier types are bad, just different.
I tried to attach pictures of a linebred Grim male along with a linebred Agar male to show the difference between the two. Sorry, computer skills is something I can use help on.
The Arko Heky line I know well as these were Slovak not Czech lines. Some of the Arko and Heky lines here in the US were crossed with some weak (in my opinion) East German lines and so a discussion of the real breed surveys on these east german dogs warrants a look. On some of these East German dogs, Sharp was an attribute. OUCH! If you at the pedigrees of two dogs I had with Heky, both had and produced solid nerve and not this sharpness but those few weird East German dogs were not part of their pedigree. Those solid nerved were Dick Bethme and Pascha Ga Ta. I watched Heky work at a nationals some decades back and he was one amazing dog and in my opinion, did not get enough good bitches to breed to because of economics of the country at the time.
great discussion all,
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
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Thank you Hans and Nancy.
We all realize there were some great dogs of the time to breed upon from the Czech and Slovak lines of those days, but I want to ask; Was there also as much crap to filter through as well, or was the overall quality of the breed in better condition than it is today? With the recent frequent use of popular sporting lines from west german workingline, and a lot more use of showline dogs than before, my perception is that the Cz. and Slovak lines have lost a great sense of overall identity that they had retained at the time. That breeders from the region lack a uniformity of goals, and less dependable quality is the result, |
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I think there are still the OLD breeders who have retained their sense of the original working dog. They just don't sell much if any, here. German show dogs were used 2 and 3 decades ago well. Those german showline dogs also competed as serious working dogs then.
I think the past dog was more sound because most countrymen could not afford to breed if the dog could not produce. Many breeders here have difficulty putting personal feelings aside and have difficulty seeing the faults.
The identity has changed somewhat in that we have a branch of sport dogs. Not so much from income from the states but in the early years of the sport, Japan, Italy, Austria bought Czech dogs for a lot of money. Italy had several Ron von haus Bernhardt Mader (then on the Slovak team), and Pascha Ga Ta's sire's offspring regularly competing on their national team. Germany had Gent Policia as one of the most popular stud dogs in the 90's.
It was a fun time to watch competition because the overall strength of the dogs. Agbar Bethme was grand.
The true PS dogs were not subject to competition. The police dog trials was the place to see them. WOW. But these dogs are not for everyone.
I bought my first black russian terrier after watching one compete in police dog trial. It was an amazing dog in strength yet still very social and personable with his handler, but not a dog for everyone. They like to stop people.
We don't see dogs like Ciro Pohranicni Straze or Cordon An-Sat anymore. But in my opinion, there is still amazing quality out there, just more inexperienced breeders who think a pedigree is the end all and forget to look at the dog. (here)
Ok, enough of the memories!
Hans? You're a native and Jiri has long earned the reputation of a producer of dogs with ability to do the work.
One more thing. Can people entering their dog's pedigree in PD PLEASE do so correctly? Velmi dobry ( or dobry) is NOT part of the dog's name! Just my pet peeve. Hans you can offer a great deal of help here!
N
www.westwoodkennels.com
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Great thread.
Thanks for sharing the information from your vast experience Prager and others! Very informative, as opposed to "how to keep your dog and cat apart"
Hopefully my girl has good hips..... LB is below.
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Ben z Bolfu
5 - 5............................................. in VELMI DOBRY Klara z Pohranicni straze
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Tina z Pohraniční stráže CS
4 - 5............................................. in Majka z Blatenskeho Zamku
4,4 - 4........................................... in SG Grim z Pohraniční stráže CS
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First of all let me say that Tom does not have bad hips or elbows. I did not say that. He has Klara in the line which is notorious in producing for many generations bad hips and elbows in dogs who are her progeny. Sometimes it skips a generation or two. But I would most definitely NOT linebreed on Klara that means on any dog which has her in the pedigree at all. That would include Tom. It had been done but it comes out later and it will show up. If you do research Klara, then you will see the bad hips are winding through the pedigrees like a red line for many generations. Even so Tom may not have significantly produced bad hips himself , then it comes out later in his progeny. The reason why tom did not produced many bad hips was Cordon An Sat his father who pushed it away with his dominancy. But Tom's progeny most definitely produced bad hips and the reason is Klara. Sorry for the wrong picture of Tom as someone pointed out. This is Tom z PS.
.jpg)
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Hans
thanks for the great pictures. It's nice to see these.
I think at some point in time, HD will be looked at differently with genetics and that is that within the whole formation of the joint may be different genes causing a particular malformation or good formation at a particular section of the joint (I am skipping anatomical terms on purpose) So, linebreeding on Klara who let's say produces (just an example !) a flattened femur head in the middle section. Breeding with a known bloodlines that produces just the opposite might start removing the Klara effect.
btw, I keep xray on file on all my dogs to watch for these patterns now. Probably by the time I am dead, they will mean something!
well, back to bloodlines. As we talk about Tom z Pohranicni Straze, he also produced a huge number of very hard dogs. Cordon An-Sat came through well on this one.
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
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Yes I agree with you Nanu. The scientific description is : Polygenetic problem with irregular pattern. In other words we do not have a clue. Fred Lanting ( and I highly recommend his books on HD) had a great way to describe the problem. It is like 2 decks of the cards. Sire's deck and Dam's deck .Let say the hearts are genes for bad hips. If you pull heart from top of the sire's deck and the dam's deck you will get bad hips in a progeny. More different hearts cards on the top of the decks, more different reasons for bad hips. All dogs have all these deck with same cards. It is then important through selective breeding push the hearts cards to the bottom of the deck and get the more favorable ones to the top. Also it is always important to push the statistical bell curve to the favorable side. I look at hips this way: Breeding (excellent to good), working(excellent to borderline and sometime grade one HD) and bad.
Anyway Tom was great dog thanks to mainly Cordon, Iwo and Klara. I wish all dogs would be as good as Tom Z PS.
 Klara z PS SP/PS, ZVV2, SCHH3 Kkl 2
I understand why everybody wanted to breed to her ,..what en excellent example of working bitch!!!!
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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by outcrossing the decks keep shuffeled maximum , result , low predictability
by linebreeding you can influence the position of the cards
so linebreeding on Tom,Grim etc doesnot guarantee bad influence from klara at all
prager , what can you tell us about cordons littermate cent ansat ,I got a young male at my club linebred three times on Cent |
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Someone mentioned earlier that even some of the czech lines are bred diffeent now......more prey for the sport.
We know this is the case for the West German working dogs.
What would be the main differences between the working dogs of 25 or so years ago and the working/sport dogs of today?
What was the difference between the West German and Czech dogs of 25 years ago? |
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| THANKS to all for such a wonderful thread. It's quite refreshing to read informed posters disscussing serious topics (unlike the OTs and my pup won't stop chasing her tail, what should I do?). Oh, and I love the zPs history lessons and insights. Please keep it up and thanks again. |
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To duke1965
Yes by linebreeding you influence the cards. Thus with linebreeding on Tom you are also linebreeding on Klara and that is bringing the bad HD cards to the top of the deck. That is what linebreeding does. It is better to outcross on a dog with deck which has (so to speak) bad hips cards on the bottom of the deck which would be in this case best/safest done by linebreeding on dog which is hips improver and that will improve the progeny in that breeding. For example if you outcross on a wolf you will probably have no bad hips for about 3 generations. (Wolfs are strongly linebread in confines of their pack and region). However if you do not pay attention after 3 generations they will come to the surface again. Also I have said that Cordon is the reason why Tom himself produced good hips, but his progeny if attention was not payed, produced bad hips in larger numbers . Thus if you linebreed on Cordon you are doing well.
As far as Grim goes he does not have Klara in his pedigree. Now understand that as it was said several times here HD is caused by different genes. Thus sometimes if you have dog with bad hips with one type of a gene of bad hips and outcross it on another dog with different gene who also causes bad hips you may get decent hips. Keep in mind that often you need these genes on sire's and Dam's side in order to produce bad hips. The good example of that is breeding of Gero z PS(KlaraHD influence) to Grim line (Ben z Bolfu HD influence) produces decent hips.
To DUTSS
there are now mainly three strains of dogs in Czech : Show , Sport and old style work. 25 years ago it was only work. this is explained best on Prey : Defense ratio. work is 50:50. sport is in favor of prey sometimes considerably . And I am not going talking here about show. If you want the old style work dogs they are still there if you know where to go. The only thing what preserves these dogs is demand by PDs here in USA and by people like you. Schutzhund most definitely does not promote them.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
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| 50:50 ratio of pray:defense creates extremely stable dog and at the same time this dog can excel in sport and real life which is the way most dogs should be. I would sacrifice few points on SCH field for a dog like that in a heart beat. Too bad there is so many breeders that breed for sport and not enough that breed dog for a total package. |
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I don't believe that you sacrifice defense with the addition of strong prey drive, it just seems that way because a lot of dogs are pronounced in either one or the other while the other side lacks. You can have a 50/50 balance of tendency to work in both drives, either pronounced, or insufficient. AND still have a clear head and be stable for a family environment.
Prager mentions Gero zPS, but I believe means Gero z Blatenskeho zamku (2-3 on Klara). |
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| "it just seems that way because a lot of dogs are pronounced in either one or the other while the other side lacks. " than you don't have the 50/50 you have one more than the other. |
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| The difference in the German working dogs of today and the German working dogs of 25 years ago is the evolution of Schutzhund from a title of breed suitability to Sch now being a title based on sport. In particular with the workinglines. Some of the stronger Czech lines (z PS, Policia,Blatensheko-zamku,etc) remind me of the German dogs of thirty years ago. Especially the lines that went through Frei v Gugge, Enno/Drigon,Busecker-Schloss. That's why I have been attracted to them among other elements. |
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"than you don't have the 50/50 you have one more than the other."
My point being is, 50/50 of a lot, is more workable than a 50/50 of nearly nuthin. |
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| You can't argue with that lol ;) |
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Yes I meant Gero z Blatenskeho zamku. Sorry.
This is how I like to describe the drives. In relative an absolute numbers.
Look 50:50 is relative ratio. in order to describe the energy of the dog I like to use scale of absolute energy units(AEU) from 1-100.
0 : dead dog
40- 60: family dog
100: most super driven / super energy dog in the history.
Thus S&R dog would be in relative numbers: 100 prey : 0 Defense. And 60-100 in absolute energy units.
Family dog: Relative ratio: 50:50 in absolute numbers of 40-60 AEU.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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| you guys need to get together and write a book! |
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| Prager has probably forgotten more than I ever knew. Looking to market one? |
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Thanks for a really informative thread and please keep the discussion going. Yes Sitasmom you are right they should write a book!
Terri |
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Holy crap, a post worthy thread. Congrats guys, it's been months since this site has thrilled me!
Hans I will be looking at your website again my friend and Daryl, I may be visiting you in MT when you are settled in, to talk dogs and area. LOL |
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Hans, what more can you tell me about Zaira Hartis Bohemia? Looks to me like a nice bitch, love her grips.
What breedings of Jiri's would be best for PSA, personal protection and breeding quality for further such dogs?
I'm not looking for points as much as natural ability, bidability, good health and an overall easy to live with dog. A clear dog with natural protection that knows when to turn it up or cool it off. I like to dabble in all sorts of stuff with my dogs, herding, my own agility and searches, hiking, hunting, PSA and of course the dog must watch my back when we are out and about or relaxing at home. I like to expose my dogs to as many things as possible, find their strengths and push them to excel in those areas.
No matter the venue, a bidable dog that enjoys pleasing it's handler, is the biggest pleasure to work with and a dog I want to spend the most time working with. So far, these are the best descriptions of a dog I have ever read...
PARD z Jirkova dvora is a member of 2nd sire's bloodline. PARD is medium large male with strong bones, required pigmentation a strong nerves. PARD is one of the last real dogs. In case of need he would not hesitate to use his teeth to stop any aggressor even if the aggressor doesn't have any equipment on. PARD can be perfectly controlled, he has excellent traits for scent work and obedience. PARD is one of few dogs that willingly and happily work on all obstacles prescribed by Czech National Title Order (ZVV). PARD has inherited the bone strength of his father and high energy level of his mother. PARD has natural active defence reaction balanced with strong prey drive. We expect PARD to produce progeny that can mainly be used at Law Enforcement.
CARLY is more than medium large and strong male with strong head, nice conformation, dark pigmentation and solid nerves. He belongs among the dogs with so called "clear head". CARLY has great willingness to work with his handler. He has so called usable capacity. This means that the entire movement potential is used to complete the required exercises fast and exactly according to the wish of his handler. CARLY has great social behavior, at the same time he is an attentive watch dog that protects his territory. CARLY has enoumously strong and hard bite.
CARLY belongs to the 5th bloodline from both sire's and dam's side. The blood is carried over world renown DDR dog INGO v. Rudingen and further over World Working Champion ORRY v. Haus Antwerpa. By using CARLY in our breeding program we pursue the return to the old working blood of former DDR dogs that were mainly renown for their willingness to work. CARLY should contribute to further improvement of conformation of our dogs, strengthening their body frame and at the same time to improve their withers.
What can you tell me about the 2 above dogs described?
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 Pard z Jirkova dvora
OK!!! That is a lot of questions. Yes I would most definitelly breed to Dargo. I have imported Dargo to USA and after some turbulent life, Dargo is living his last years in loving home in Florida. I am with Liberatore trying to select a bitch for A.I. We are thinking about this one:
http://alpinek9.com/Dog7.html
But it is not a done deal.
I am actually toying with an idea to do some close linebreeding on Dargo. Dargo has Fast normal hips but he is actually, according to my friend hips iprover. I got to study on this more though.
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/463148.html
 Dargo Ha Ja Da
I love Pard z Jirkova dvora.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/560337.html
The problem is that he is not trendy looking.(Picture above). But what a worker!!!! Police line producer. His hardness is defined mainly by SG Lord vom Gleisdreieck -> Balli Panta Rei connection. But there are others. This pedigree is not "sexy" by today's fad standards. I sold Balli and his daughter Yeta who is sister to Yska which is mother to Pard. Yetta just like Yska was super seriou protection dog. Mild hips issues but nothing which could not be outcrossed. Super workability though. I have never seen more intimidating dog without showing any aggression then Balli Panta Rei could dish out by sheer presence.
Carly Policia Slovakia is a trendy looking working dog.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/598600.html
The 3 X WUSV SIEGER Orry von Haus Antverpa is nice there . On the bottom side son of V Held vom Ritterberg(!) Bero vom Friedersdorfer Flur is a asset. SG Grischa vom Schwarzen Milan
produced some bad elbows but he is pretty far back. I would not linebreed on him though or any other dogs known for this problems. and on the very bottom we have V Ingo von Rudingen
one of the founders of z Pohranicni straze line.
I am holding back male and female pup from Carly and Galina litter. When I walk around these pups they are holding onto me like grapes. Please feel free to contact me if you are interested in or to owe any of these lines.
 Carly Policia Slovakia
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
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Hans, thank you for the reply. I care not much for trends. I think Pard is beautiful and postd him on the dogs that catch my eye thread. He looks like a worker, very athletic, can probably go all day. I like that he is not OVER boned or too heavy in build/deep in chest.
Orry Antverpa is one of my favorite dogs of all time and is 4-5,4 in both of my present dogs. Seeing Aly and all the dogs that come behind him gives me some confidence in Carly's abilities. I am not very farmiliar with the Czech or Slovak dogs yet.
I am greatful to anyone who knows or has known past dogs and is willing to share information an working ethic, temp and health for the beterment of the breed. |
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| I only see 3 pups produced by Pard. Are there more not on the PDB? I'd like to know more on how he produces. Same with Carly. |
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Hans,
Thanks for your reply. I would like to know more about the mate check I did above. Please, let me know about the two lines combining.
thanks
Oh, with the female your looking at breeding with the AI from Dargo, why would you choose that female rather than any other? Just wanting to learn the lines and how they improve or unimprove the next generation. I want to get into improving the GSD back to what it should be: A WORKING DOG.
I also want to get a good solid GSD to work on the street and not these dogs I help train with other officers that the department bought. These dogs work but I would not put myself in a situation that I may get killed with any of these dogs. They are great drug dogs and okay patrol dogs but I like something a lot harder. |
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If you'll permit me, I don't know if he can say much about Carly. He's had about sixteen breedings or more this year, but the oldest in Feb. would put the offspring at only about 6 mo.s age. This isn't to say he was never bred before owned by Jiri, and I would really hope so, actually. Because, to find out about negative breeding issues after the progeny have spread about like wildfire, is too late for damage control.
I can say though, there have been very few health issues with the linebreeding on Held, which I and others have done many times without producing adverse elbows or hips. And g-g-sire Aly is the most notable producer of quality hips for all time under the SV rating system, g-sire Faro being a known improver as well. The greatest need for improvement in those Held linebreedings I conducted, was 'insufficient to moderate prey drive' for the application of sport, and perhaps how Orry v.h.A and Troll line could fill that gap considerably.
Thus, I'd consider Carly to probably be an overall very nice dog, so that emphasis for consideration is for the bitch he is brought to, and whether or not, or to what extent he can stamp his mark on the offspring. I haven't examined the pedigrees he's been matched to, and doubt I would see any pattern of intent anyway. But my hunch is, there won't be a lot of 'uniformity' in results. |
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| Thanks for the info Daryl. Where did you find it? |
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| What, specifically? His ČMKU registered (Czech) breedings beginning this year are here. |
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Darylehret
Can you please explain this statement : But my hunch is, there won't be a lot of 'uniformity' in results.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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| Lacking consistent similarity of his offspring among themselves, and they, a similarity to himself. Doesn't mean that's necessarily undesireable, it just matters who he's brought to produce with. I'm sure he'll make a lot of fine pups, just not as efficiently as possible. |
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Photo of Leopold here too, winning an Advanced Rally A competition.
http://www.cnmgsdc.org/obedience%20&%20rally,%20sunday,%20March%2029,%202009.html
LEOPOLD VON LEBOLD SAIZ
Breeder: Walter Heitzinger
By Columbo Vom Buttelborner Land x Berta Von Heitzinger
Owner: Chris Saiz
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darylehret
With all due respect.
That is what
I thought that you have said and I just wanted to make sure. Now let me ask you this.
Where do you get this!!!?!
I have seen several litters produced by Carly and even have some pups from Carly held here for myself. I was in such a disbelieve when I have red your statement, that I have also talked to my partner about this. He is the one who produces these litters in Czech and who is a breed warden of GSD in Czech rep and who created some of these blood lines and he and I have together about 75 +- years of experience in breeding and training these lines for family, sport, police and S&R and many other working purposes and I would like to state that Carly's pups are very enviably consistent in size, color, temperament and drive and the pups are very similar in these aspects to the father who is very genetically dominant .Thus he is stamping his mark on his offspring superbly so far. By the way , we do know what we are going to produce way before the 2 dogs are put together. Thus I would not worry about spreding major disaster.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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| I hope you two aren't planning a blanket party for me or anything. I tend to believe that a dog without structured linebreeding can produce himself consistently, but only if his parents were a match of strong equal type. Most do not carefully plan their breedings this way, and perhaps Policia Slovakia kennels do. I would have to congratulate them for operating with greater efficiency than most of our government run programs usually do. |
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No, no blanket party, we usually just brake a knee cap or so. (Just kidding.) I have to say that I do like linebreeding and so does Jiri.
Also there is Iinebreeding in Carly in early generations. Ingo von Rudingen is there in seven generations 7 times or so. And there are some others. I know people say that it is too far back but it is not. The geneticaly strong dogs repeat themselves in their trades for many generations forward. Some trades go forward like a red line which then braides itself into a bunch from threads of the same type which came from different locations.. if I may. That is the case here. Strong type breeding is also present > Typebreeding on structure, color and workability.
Prager Hans |
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By the way, do you have a photo of his mother, Quinte Policia? Her sister Quanda has a fabulous build.
Quanda Policia
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| WOW. $4.64 now, the US dollar is so weak. That alone begs a lot of questions to be answered. It appears she was several years old at the time? Kind of like my knees the way they are, though. Any siblings of Carly that really stand out, or was he just a lucky roll of the dice? |
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I think its kindoff funny for someone who is not a breeder , who doesnot know the dog carly policia slovakia , nor the bitches he is breeding , to say something silly like ;there wont be much uniformity in results
Daryll , you of all people should know the motherline is a very strong linebred line
faro policia -bero friedersdorfer flur-ex riedstern-ali vom granert
the way the faro pedigree is buildup is the way I like too see a pedigree ,not per se closely linebred , but linebred on a dog that is linebred itself and so on
also brony policia is a linebred dog
fatherline is a very strong pedigree , so my hunch is that carly bred back to his motherline or close to the troll/timmy line will give a good chance on uniformity in results
furthermore I saw carly in person , and must say he is something special , in looks as well as in drives and workingethics |
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I think its kindoff funny for someone who is not a breeder , who doesnot know the dog carly policia slovakia , nor the bitches he is breeding , to say something silly like ;there wont be much uniformity in results
Daryll , you of all people should know the motherline is a very strong linebred line
faro policia -bero friedersdorfer flur-ex riedstern-ali vom granert
the way the faro pedigree is buildup is the way I like too see a pedigree ,not per se closely linebred , but linebred on a dog that is linebred itself and so on
also brony policia is a linebred dog
fatherline is a very strong pedigree , so my hunch is that carly bred back to his motherline or close to the troll/timmy line will give a good chance on uniformity in results
furthermore I saw carly in person , and must say he is something special , in looks as well as in drives and workingethics |
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I think its kindoff funny for someone who is not a breeder , who doesnot know the dog carly policia slovakia , nor the bitches he is breeding , to say something silly like ;there wont be much uniformity in results
Daryll , you of all people should know the motherline is a very strong linebred line
faro policia -bero friedersdorfer flur-ex riedstern-ali vom granert
the way the faro pedigree is buildup is the way I like too see a pedigree ,not per se closely linebred , but linebred on a dog that is linebred itself and so on
also brony policia is a linebred dog
fatherline is a very strong pedigree , so my hunch is that carly bred back to his motherline or close to the troll/timmy line will give a good chance on uniformity in results
furthermore I saw carly in person , and must say he is something special , in looks as well as in drives and workingethics |
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