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Sitting Problem (23 replies)
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My dog has always had a problem with hovering during the sit. I have spent so long trying to get him to figure it out and many methods as well. The other day i read something that sounded dumb but i said what the heck i have tried for so long why not give it a try. I read that by putting an e-collar on the top of the butt and using the correct level along with a reward to take the mind off of the correction that you can get the message to the dog.
I am happy to say that my dog FINALLY is showing progress with the sit. he even sits quickly now knowing that a reward is coming. Im sure this wont work for all dogs and i don't recommend it for all but if you have an extremely high drive dog who can work through it and you have tried a lot of things to correct this problem i would give it a try. |
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Obviously without knowing you or the dog, but are you sure there are no hip related problems? Just in case the dog is having to make himself comfortable to sit.
Now presumably, you know whether his hips are ok. (Needed to put this too for anyone else reading to consider).
The next part is said with a friendly knowing wink, and not as an obnoxious attack towards you ......
Your dog does not have a problem with hovering during a sit - you do!!! He is saying I will sit in "my time" and you have been accepting this. You have probably been trying little tricks or fast rewards to encourage a quicker Sit, which will re-inforce his understanding that you are prepared to recognise that he is 'holding back'!
You need to be thinking of the "Whys" behind this.
Regards,
Vixen |
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Please take films from behind the you dog and from the side.
Lets see what it looks like.
Always,
Cee
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Now i have heard everything Using an electric collar to get a Dog to sit, the most basic thing of all as is said check the Dogs hips and if they are okay then you are the one at fault not the dog for allowing it to happen in the first place
Steve1 |
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nothing wrong with using electric collar if you using on law stimulus (read appropriate to your dog). I used it on my self plenty of time and on settings up to 68, never had a dog that needed more than 20 and at 20 it still tickles for me. I think that correction from a prong is way harder than e-collar, and before I experience e-collar on my self I would disagree with everyone out there. I still prefer to use prongs though ;)
when you said getting the dog to sit, I am assuming it was off leash? If so there is nothing better than e-collar for that.
And yes I agree if the dog is healthy than it's your fault ;) but we all do it lol, every now and than. |
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Never heard before of using an E Collar to get a dog to sit, if that is the case then one may as well use one for the sit the down the walk in fact everything to do with basic obed and it is basic in the truest form
No, a correct from a prong collatr is not the same as a correction from a E collar, if this was so then why the need for an e collar, they have there uses but not for teaching a dog to sit which we all know is done from puppy hood.
If there is nothing phyiscal wrong with the dog then the handler is at fault
Steve1 |
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http://www.loucastle.com/
E-collar is in so many ways less abusive and more consistent than prong and it is a fact not an assumption. E-collar delivers constant stimulus (correction) with disregards for scenario, state of mind, or fatigue of it's handler, this can't be accomplished with prong. You do not use e-collar to teach the dog comments, just like you don't use prong to teach, you use them to reinforce. Well if any one teaches the dog through prong you most likely should not be training. I suggest trying it before making assumption, I did I tried on my self prong and e-collar (I know it sounds crazy) guess which one I prefer? The biggest issue with e-collar that it dose not deliver sense of direction this is why you use it to reinforce training and not teach it, while prong collar combined with a leash will deliver correction and sens of direction. There is a reason why so many competitors use it, because it makes training easier and more consistent. It should not be used by someone that dose not know how to use it but this is the case with prong as well. You will forgive me Steve but I will choose to disagree with you, but I respect your believe and I am not trying to contradict you in any way just give a different point of view. I use my self prong but only because I am still learning how to use e-collar correctly and I won't switch over till I am ready.
The link above is for your reference steve if you would like to read up by someone that I think is one of the gratest trainers when comes to correct e-collar application. |
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I do not use an e collar and never had to use one I rarely correct a dog using a prong collar if the dog is in the wrong postition it will correct itself as it will feel the prong, you the handler do not have to use it often
Izzy is not yet 6 months old she sits on command, she walks good, she will sit whist i walk away from her then walk back,
i can sit her and walk around her in a circle, i can sit her and call her to me and she sits in front
All done with the aid of a leather collar, and i can tell you she is a real firebrand of a Pup, Huge Drive and now has a new name at the club of Loopy Lou, But she is intelligent that is the main thing
as i said before i have never in 60 years of keeping dogs had any problem to get a dog to be obed
Steve1 |
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| I am with you Steve, leather collar and some positive reinforcment and you don't need nothing else, but I never close my mind to other training methods or tools. |
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I do not close my eyes to any method, but i have never had to use any other method to teach a Dog the Basices, There will come a time when i may have to put a Prong on Izzy, but certainly not at her age, and anyway for protection we never ever use a Prong we use a Chain but on two rings so it cannot tighen up, that is the collar used in competition and trials. If i can get away without using a prong i will but i will not hold my breath on that one but at the moment she is good for her age
Steve1
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I agree with anyone who said it was my fault. i probably was to focused on building drive as a young dog with the ball instead of teaching the basics first and dealing with drive as a different subject. I am not claiming that i am a great trainer or anything but what i see from my dog is that he understands the sit very well. the problem i see is his drive for reward tells him that I dont have to sit when he is up in drive. If he is just relax he sits no problem but i train in high drive because that is picture im looking for from him. with the e-collar he has something that tells him even in high drive he must obey and then and only then he gets a reward. i have changed the timing of the rewards so the dog never knows when its coming. the collar on top of his butt physically puts his but down. now he is understanding that once his initial motion of sitting begins then he has to go even further to actually sit. again i know im not perfect in my training but im just letting you know what has worked for me AND HOW HAPPY I AM that my boy is finally doing this exercise. im sure im not the only person with this issue so i thought it would be good to post for those like me.
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| Do not reward the dog in the sit position anymore. If you want to reward, go back to the dog and fuss a few steps and reward. With a very high dog you can and sometimes must make the sit a dead zone. They self load when an exercise starts anyway. This will also help with the jumps as an overloaded dog usually will drop his head in anticipation and race at the jump without hitting his take-off point. They tend to hit the jump going out but clear coming back. Maybe something you can try. Good luck in your training. |
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| Thanks for that advice REALCOLD. That is exactly what i started doing about three weeks ago. He then started anticipating going FOWARD because he new once we took a few steps his reward was there. He started lifting his butt and then i had to correct him which got him even higher. I have decided to make the sit an absolute dead zone for now with no reward until i see his drive go down(if ever) for the reward after the sit. Then i will slightly build him back up a little. |
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E collars, Prong collars to teach a simple obedience command, I thought we were out of the dark ages now. I can honestly say that this is one good thing about the UK (not many of them left I admit) that these instruments of torture are rarely used for severe behavioural problems (I've only heard rumours of use never seen them used) let alone basic obedience a puppy should be doing.
If you are talking a sit wait rather than a sit stay you need to teach it so the dog doesn't always get called and you go and reward it while it is sitting not after it has moved.
Disgusted from Mayfair |
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| Make it real dead. Walk back slow and quietly say sit as you pass by. Wander around and each time you pass say sit very quietly and slow. When he is out of drive walk by and say fuss quietly and in a low voice so you don't load him. You can then fuss away and reward or not as usually the work is the reward for the high loaders. |
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| Thanks that is what i will do. so far im happy with the results im getting. I have a trial in 10 days. Im going for a sch1 and 2. Its so funny that im dealing with this with a dog that is getting ready to trial but every dog has a flaw. its called the handler. lol. i am very excited to show him off because he is a better dog than i am a handler. he just turned 2 so he is doing great. |
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Smartguy
I give you credit for not flying off the handle at some of the hard remarks including mine,that says a lot for your temperament which is what is needed to train a dog Good Luck with your fellow keep at it and you will win the day
Steve1 |
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"and if they are okay then you are the one at fault not the dog for allowing it to happen in the first place"
OK thank you all, but then what do you do as NOT ACCEPTING IT "
Seems to me, the more I try to correct it, the more tense become the dog and the less he sits
any help is appreciated, I acquired this high drive dog WITH THE PROBLEM and I sure wish to find an effective way to fix it
thank you
p.l.d.
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| I went through that same thing and i had to take some steps backwards. I stop putting so much pressure and treated the dog like a puppy. i did not expect speed or anything just simply that the dog put his but on the ground and then i used food to reward so that the dog would not get excited like he does for the ball. after that step i built the drive for the sit by using the ball and making it a game. I would let him chase the ball 2 times while it was in my hand and on the third time i would say sit while he was still in the air. the faster he sat the faster he got the reward from me. that worked well until he started to anticipate the sit so i had to change the game a little. then he got smarter and that led me to the e-collar on the butt. At first i had to use a leash as well as the e-collar so the dog would not spin around and i used the momentary button not the other just like a leash correction but on the butt. Good luck i know its frustrating but take it slow because it took me a long time due to the pressure i created for the sit to get him back to excepting the command as just another command. |
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This thread has thrown up two points that I have heard mentioned / read about - testing an e-collar on oneself and whether an e-collar is necessary at all. First, the e-collar as felt by a human cannot be compared to a dog which feels it much more because of its blood chemistry (p/h Value?) Second, that after the advent of the e-collar in its present sophisticated form, almost no dog reaches the topmost levels of competition without its use in the final stages of training.
My own understanding is that the e-collar, where continuous stimulation is delivered at very low levels as is done initially, results in a mild sensation of uneasiness that the dog cannot understand and this makes it 'stick' to the handler and makes the dog more compliant during initial 'escape' training. Of course, later in training in high drive situations much higher levels of stimulation may become necessary to obtain quicker responses to learned commands till the dog learns to react before the the stimulation is delivered, even momentarily, at which stage it is faded out.
To be effective enough to obtain rapid results with an e-collar, one needs thorough knowledge of when and how to use it (and good timing , as in all training) or it may result in more setbacks than progress.
Shezam
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| I heavily agree with shezam1. I almost suffered a set back witht this method but i caught it very quickly and fixed it. Timing is key but also making sure the level is not to high. |
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