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Classified: beautiful female for sale
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Difference between Schutzund and Personal Protection Training? (22 replies)
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| Does anyone want to discuss the differences between the two? |
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Hope this will turn to an educational thread, trainers are requested to comment with as much details as possible , please.
Ibrahim |
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People can write "novels" about the diference! I know of dogs that do both.. no difference for them. I like to do it all with my dogs if they can handle it! They must have the drives and temperament.
Then I know of dogs that are pretty on a Schutzhund field, those are the prey monsters. Those are the ones I don't care much about.
There are people who will not push a dog and put more "thread" into the work. These dogs sometimes have those funny barks, usually nice, fast bites but no fight.. they kinda hop with the helper and those are the dogs that look pretty but no intensity. Some of these could do better some of them couldn't. It all depends on a dog..
There should not be diference.. unfortunatelly there is!
I am not going any further on this topic because I know of a nice Show dog that can do better but the trainers will not allow that...... the reason is unknown to me.
And so it goes.....
Pack
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| I have both. The protection trained dogs besides the expected outing on command, and attacking on command, similar to schutzund, are taught to bite the whole body thru the use of a full body suit, attack out of an automobile, search my home if I suspect something amiss when we come home, be alert for dangers, attack the arm where the weapon is, attack if family is attacked, etc. |
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workingdogforum.com has really good discussions of this topic in "personal protection dogs", but you have to create an account to read them, i think.
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(This is very over symplistic so realize I know that)
In a sentence... The Schutzhund dog focus is on the sleeve the personal protection dog is focused on the threat. Beyond that a PPD doesn't need competitive obedience, retreving, jumps etc... doesn't need tracking... the Schutzhund dog is more rounded andis being tested for breed worthyness.
One of the best PPD's I met was a small bitch who hated sleeves! When presented with a threat she regularily ducked under the arm ( which she'd learned was padded and didn't stop the aggressor) and nabbed the attacker in the knee. She did exactly that when her owner was mugged by an idiot who was stupid enough to attack when the dude had a GSD. She then outed smartly and watched til the police arrived.
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| Not all Schutzhund dogs are trained to focus on the sleeve. That is from people unfamiliar with the difference between Schutzhund and sport training. Mine as well as many others are trained to focus on the man and taught the sleeve is just a path to the man. |
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I agree Bob... many are not sleeve happy. And ^5's to their trainers for presenting a more complete dog. The PPD who ducked the sleeve to get beyond it though would not have made a good Schutzhund dog, though she was excellent in PPD. The other part as I mentioned is that the Schutzhund dog has much more extensive training in areas OTHER THAN the bite work to qualify. Hildy didn't give a fig for a straight sit... LOL. I guess what I meant is that PPD's aren't looking for any style points in their methods. It's the end goal that drives them.
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If a dog is trained in Schutzund, can you "turn him on" with a command to protect you out in pubic?
One observation I have is, in Schutzund work the dog can make decisions on their own and pursue the bite if the handler moves. I saw a family bring a dog to a trainer friend of mine that had been trained in Schutzund. As soon as my friend walked up to the dog he was extremely alert. My friend moved in a unpredictable but subtle kind of way and that dog came unclued, lunged and went for the bite. The dog didn't wait for anytime of command. And, in the hands of a 18 yr. old handler who got 2 hrs. of training from the trainer they bought the dog from, dangerous.
In controlled personal protection, the dog cannot use his own judgement unless the owner is outrightly being attacked. Otherwise, he should not turn on to protect until commanded.
I am to understand that a Schutzund trained dog would not go for the bite on a person without a sleeve? The above mentioned dog sure did. |
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This thread has the potential to get ugly because the waters can be muddied so well.
A dog trained in pure "sport" work may or may not actually protect the owner in the face of a real threat. In fact, the owner of pattern-trained "SchH" dog would be well advised not to trust life and limb to such an animal.
I would gander that "most" sport dogs would NOT protect their owners in a real life situation, if for no other reason than they have not had the foundation work and training from a truly gifted training helper to develop the dog properly.
SchH, in and of itself, is a choreographed routine, with 100% completely predictable scenarios. I have personally seen *coward* dogs pass a SchH trial because they have been habituated to the routine.
Some sport dogs are capable of PPD work. A critical mistake is to ASS-U-ME that all SchH "protection" dogs would actually protect.
To further muddy the waters, a whole lot of "personal protection" dogs for sale on the internet are not worth the paper their pedigrees are printed on. There is no national certifying agency for PPD. There is no "stamp of approval", and there probably never will be. Just about any Slick Joe with a sexy web site and inflated dog prices can claim to have an Executive Level Protection Dog.
Unfortunately Americans often mistake price for value and will open their wallets far too wide when looking for "personal protection". Some of these trainers are legit, but many just prey on the emotions of the buyer... "Here's a photo of your only daughter... here's a photo of your beloved daugter getting sodomized by freaks... here's a photo of your Executive Level Protection Dog defending your precious daughter from her assailants..."
To make a long story even longer, there is a LOT of difference between SchH and PPD training, if done right, and only a slim percentage of the "Master Trainers" on the internet advertising PPD's really can do the full monty.
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Schbabe:
Again you are comparing a "Sport" trained dog to a "Schutzhund" dog that is what "muddies" the water most people don,t contemplate the difference. There are many talented trainers and decoys who train for the whole dog not just the sport aspect. |
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| SCH dog trained to focus on the sleeve? Than your trainer dose not know what he is doing, nothing worst than equipment focus dog. It's easier to find good SCH dog than a good PPD dog. It's even harder to find good trainer. And if you have dog that do both than he is a keeper. The difference is one is a sport and a game, the other one is for real. The intensity level is totally different, PPD dog are trained to take a hit, SCH dog's not to that extend. SCH aims for flashy (fully focus obedience) while PPD dogs aim is good obedience, that means no matter what the situation the obedience needs to be there, but it dose not have to be perfect. Most PPD dog's that I seen that had good obedience were trained to do obedience during bite work, do the obedience your reward is bite, rather than play with a toy, that re insure that the obedience was always there and the dog under full control, but the result was never flashy beautiful that you would want in SCh dog. BTW the topic been discussed over her over and over, it pups up at least 2 times a year. SCH dog is no PPD dog, and PPD dog is no SCH dog, when they two meet and can do both, they the kind of dogs to die for. Jim has one, his K9 started in SCh and now is a police k9, I believe it has to do with that sweet line breeding that he has on his dog ;). lol. |
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snaiper69:
I agree with your inital statement, But The "game" is only one aspect of Schutzhund the "sport" has overridden the function to many times I will agree but the Schutzhund dog is a working dog first and foremost(or atleast should be) bred and trained for the job of working. The trials have declinned to the current state of prey,prey,prey and that is a sad state of affairs but there are still people involved with the dogs that breed for sound working abilities and proper temperment and drives suitable and tested for any work appointed to them and yes it sounds as if Jim,s dog fits that bill to the T. |
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| Bob, no doubt that many good trainers inject a dose of "reality" work into their training. Kudos to them! My points is that one should not automatically assume that any random Schutzhund trained dog has received the benefit of this kind of training. I wish for the sake of the breed this was so. I love to see dogs that have real heart and courage, regardless of the points they tally on the field. |
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It's hard to make it real when you wearing sleeve ;), you want real use hidden sleeves, suites etc, in my ppd dogs I expect that they will be nasty bitters, suspect running away grab them by the back and bring them down, full frontal assault go inside and use you momentum to bring the bad guy, grabbing hand etc for me puts the dog in dangerous situation. This is why I don't believe SCh dog makes good protection dog, and any one thinking that they are, well lets hope for the dog sake that his/her handler wont put them in that position. And Bob dose of reality in SCh would be nice I agree, for me at this point SCH is obedience exercise, I don't consider protection exercise, focus is on control and obedience, rather than actually fighting the decoy. For most owners this will do just fine I believe most people should not own a PPD dogs because most people can't handle them, or will provide adequate maintains in order to keep the dog on top of his game. But this is just my opinion there is plenty more knowledgeable people out here that disagree. |
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SchHBabe, boy are you right!
I do not do competitive sport or schutzund, and am not a police officer. I have a controlled personal protection dog (10 yr. Rott/Shep) mix that I started and trained under a master trainer. Is there anyone else on this board like me, just an average everyday dog owner who has a controlled personal protection dog? Just wondering. |
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I have a dog that was bought as a PPD.
He had been trained in the house against an intruder, vehicle protection and would do a house search upon returning home.
A situation arose that let me know that I had to get more control on the dog and we did attend Schutzhund Training. Some may disagree on whether that was the correct course to take or not. I'm still quite new to his aspect of dogs and it seemed at the time the way to go.
He recently passed his SchH1.
It was not an easy thing. He had/has trouble on the outs but he will out, not quickly and very vocally but will out.
The guy we trained with worked hard with us to get a good response on the outs but even the day of the trial the judges comment was "should out much faster".
He also has a habit of turning back on the trainer even with the sleeve in his mouth and when it started getting dark and we were still on the field training it seems that the dark presented another bit of an issue for him.
Two of the men that trained us cautioned me several times that he is a big powerful dog and even commented that if he turned on me I'd have to do something with him.
He has never shown even the least bit of issue with me or any of the animals in my home. My neighbors love him.
He is a gentleman as far as a dog goes but not the best in obedience on the field.
He is still an excellent protection/companion.
A gentleman comes about every six months to make sure he's on his game. The last time he came his last exercise was for me to have the dog at a back door. The trainer was to open the front door as if he was going to enter the home. He gave me the signal to send the dog and it was his intention to get the door shut in his face and make an "escape".
When I sent the dog he hit the front door so hard and fast that he actually ripped out the bottom trim on the floor and the door flew open. The dog cornered the and then nailed the trainer in the upper thigh through the scratch pants.
I think doing both for us was good, it helped me get a better understanding of who my dog is and helped him gain some respect for me. It definitly gave as a better bond.
Franki |
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| Franki, lol good dog, that's a good PPD dog lol, but you are right on with regards to continue working him, you will create better bond with him and you will understand his capability better. Very smart thing to do in my opinion. |
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Regardless what you say Bob(and I agree with you), SchH IS a sport and that is a problem. 99.9% of SchH people train for the performance during sport routine. Type of training that Bob is talking about, is rare. SchH dog who will protect for real is just a great dog who was put on a path of SchH and would protect in any case regardless, based on natural instincts, temperament, discrimination ability and courage. PP dog will benefit from all SchH training up to one year of age then the path of training splits. There is no routine in real life protection. There is, as a rule, not NECESSARY development of courage through threat in SchH training. It is usually all prey based development of routine and that includes even the "courage test". SchH dog does not recognize threat during the trial, because there is none. PP dog must recognize the threat when presented to him, which induces in him fear or suspicion which he/she then overcomes by courage through aggression. Threat, fear/suspicion, courage, aggression sequence is not involved in SchH training and performance. You know that you have PP dog if :
1.he is capable to attack effectively on a command a stranger, in strange place without any agitation and no gear.
2.Attack effectively intruder (Same as above in point 1.) into the house or other perimeter, without the command.
3.And truly great pp dog takes it personally if the bad guy tries to hurt him and that increases his anger in aggression.
4.PP dog must be socially resilient and neutral with neutral and friendly strangers. (crazy vicious dog can not protect you if he is locked up in a kennel.)
That is my acid test.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com |
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Schutzhund or any of the dog sports are comparable to Boxing, an art, a sport, developing mental and physical skills prior to experiences during trials. Now I don't want to take on anyone that does boxing however if I was being sent to Afghanistan in January I would be learning a more appropriate style of combat.
There are plenty of dogs in schutzhund that produce excellent K9's all over the world, it's about the breeder knowing the lines and charactistics, strengths and weakness's of the dogs.
This PPD should be taken with a pinch of salt, this Lassie stuff where the dog bites the hand with the weapon, and knows which assailant to attack is pie in the sky. A true PPD dog takes a good handler and hell of a lot of regular training. I train schutzhund at the weekends and use dogs all week as part of the tactical team I run (SWAT) which I have done for 22yrs now. I see dogs engage subjects almost weekly, sometimes several times a night, even with hours of training and experience with K9's and even schutzhund dogs they still make big mistakes. The super hero PPD with less regualar training and vitually zero real life experience, with a less experienced handler is close to lottery odds. One of the jobs I do is force entry into premises (raids) in the middle of the night, few dogs, even the drug dealers dogs truly stand there ground.
PPD dogs need careful selection and training, and the owners need more. Few people here would want to live with a true PPD dog but the idea that there is something out there to protect you, your family and property, is a very attractive one. |
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| ronin, I agree with you completely.A ppd is a nice concept but few are the real deal.Most will show alert-aggression when they are in a somewhat safe zone. Once real physical threat and pain is introduced some will choose avoidance over fight if the situation permits. Many different routines and scenarios can be trained,but not all and many times the real ones don't play out the same way. A surprise and real life physical threat might produce a different reaction then what was expected from the training.As for the difference in training, ppd dogs are not trained to participate in a sport or game,but as close to possible in real life scenarios where the bad guy inflicts pain and pressure and works the dog in defense or fight drive, not a decoy he is playing a game where there is no real physical danger to him.As stated earlier obedience doesn't have to be pretty with a ppd, but is desirable, however the ppd has to be 100% in his obedience work 100% of the time.Dogs that are truly reliable and stable for this type of training are few and far between. |
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ForFoxyRoxy, you are not alone. I have a rott that stands beside me.
Prager, #4 so correct, so amazes me that this is not understood more. To me this is a must and the number one thing I look for in a dog. |
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