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Classified: Male Ideal for Personal Protection,police Sport
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price of stud fees VS puppy prices (25 replies)
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| i noticed the thread about high stud fees. while it would be great to be able to breed to the greatest stud dogs for a song and a prayer i think we should look at things from a different perspective. if the stud is a good male from good lines why is $1,000 stud fee out of line? let's look at it another way. you take the bitch you either bought or raised to the stud that was bought or raised by his owner, and pay $1,000 for the stud fee. you produce 10 pups in the litter. now because of the good stud and bloodline you charge $1000 per pup. ($1,000-$1500 seeming to be the norm) and you keep one for yourself. 9 pups at $1,000 = $9,000 minus the 1,000 stud fee puts $8,000 in your pocket (less any transport fees) and the pup of your choosing in your back yard. all of a sudden $1,000 for the owner of the stud that either raised, fed and titled him or spent a lot of $ buying, doesn't seem that far out of line to me. so what's really out of whack here? the stud fees or the pup prices? |
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| It's all "supply and demand" and there is nothing FAIR about prices in a capitalist economy. People with top dogs will ask, and receive, top dollar for stud fees simply because people are willing to pay it.
People will ask, and receive, top dollar for their puppies simply because people are willing to pay it.
It's unfortunate but SchH is becoming an unaffordable sport for the Average Joe who has the best of intentions but cannot take out a second mortgage on his house to pay for puppies or young dogs.
This trend will continue until the market becomes saturated, or people stop paying high prices for stud fees, puppies, and young dogs. |
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| Neither is out of whack. There is a lot less risk in donating sperm than there is in going through the complications of pregnancy and having babies. Just ask any woman!!!
How is 1000-1500 dollars too much for good German Shepherd lines that people have invested 100's of training hours in? It's quite a bargain really. You don't have to pay this much though, you can just go to the pound and pick one up for about $75.00. :-b |
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| Hi RAMGSD, I would say... buy a puppy, title and see that she has korung and start breeding. I hope for you that all will be OK from the first puppy and wish you lot's off succes getting a Miljonair in a very short time... For me, after 30 years off dogssport and breeding, I am still not rich and put money in my "hobby"... what would I do wrong...??? |
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| you people are geting the wrong message here. i was just pointing out that it is strange that the others in another thread could complain about paying so much for a stud fee and then charge the same amount for each and every pup. i have no problem paying for a top stud or pup. my yard proves that. i just think it is hypocritical to complain about the pricey stud fee and then feel it's OK to charge big $ for the pups. |
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| meanderer990 you obviously are one of those that either can't read, don't understand what they read, or just like to run off at the mouth. please explain to me (if you can) how comments like:
"You don't have to pay this much though, you can just go to the pound and pick one up for about $75.00. :-b"
are of any benefit to anyone? perhaps reading and understanding a post before you respond would be in order. as well as keeping it adult and leaving the juvenial comments and the tounge to the elementary school students. |
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| Think back to the days you either paid a stud fee or the stud owner had pick of the litter. Still happens in many areas and for many breeds. Consider how the much the "stud fee" is at that point. |
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| 10 pups in a litter? I don't know many breeders that get that many pups in each litter...more like 4-7 is the norm I have heard. Not to mention progesterone testing, (many top stud owners require this to be done, so as not to waste breeding time and energy), some also charge board if you leave the bitch, brucellosis test, (required for top studs), feeding, deworming, health exams, and vaccinations for all the pups, that profit is rapidly dwindling...
Theresa |
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| ramgsd: I totally agree with you 100%. I made the same argument on a similar post awhile back and it didn't go over very well either. You made some very good points. Some people may think $1,000 is out of line for a stud fee; I look at it this way if you've got a nice bitch, out of exceptional bloodlines you're not gonna breed her to just anything therefore $1,000 wouldn't be unreasonable for the stud dog owner to demand that price for a dog of equivalance. If my dogs pups are selling for more than $1,000 then I hardly think the stud fee being $1,000 is unreasonable or out of line. You don't get rich off breeding or studding dogs. Period. I personally offer my dog as a stud because he has so much to offer ones breeding program-the $1,000 stud fee is not gonna make me any wealthier. I want to weed out the people who are just looking to breed for sole purpose of profiting and who will breed to anything as long as they get a good deal. I think part of the market being saturated is due to that reason. People breeding and not even knowing what they are breeding or selling people. If you want top shelf well then you're gonna pay for top shelf; if you can't afford it then maybe you shouldn't drink. If an owner of a bitch isn't willing to pay for quality then maybe they shouldn't be breeding??? Make sense??? |
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| I didn't know I was directing any negativity your way. I thought I was agreeing with you??? |
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| since I'd have to fly to most stud dogs, for a grand stud fee, plus flights, I might as well just take her on over the pond and breed to BSP or WUSV dog for E400-500. Sch3 kor classed and probably already produced pups that got titled and that I can see working in clubs.
also, the stud owner spends a couple hours getting a female mated tops and walks away with his money. He does not risk his dog in puppybirth, spend 8 weeks cleaning up after pups and have to deal wtih all the stuff selling those pups brings. He spends a couple of hours doing a breeding - a thousand bucks for 2 hours investment vs 100s of hours and pounds of crappy papers.
geez - I wanna sell you guys yoru next cars.
Hmmmm |
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| AGAR, thank you. finally someone who understands my point. you get what you pay for.
always hearing about how much work it is whelping a litter. and the $ it takes and the time involved. if you're going to a good stud (which you should be) what about all the time and expense his owner has invested in his upbringing and getting him to SCH3??? i know $1,000 doesn't begin to cover it.
but who's in it to make big money? not many people do. it should be for love of the breed and like AGAR stated, the price keeps out those who would breed there $200 newspaper shepherd to a good stud and end up with dogs with bad nerves...
and JRT, buddy let me know when you plan to make the trip and i'll have a deposit to you before you go. got to respect going for the best. but then again already have dogs off ASKO and his half brother BASKO. but always looking to add good blood.
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| I don't understand the point of this post. Everything costs money, blah, blah blah and then some. |
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| meanderer: I apologize if I sounded abrassive; I must have misunderstood. I was trying to state my position since I knew someone was gonna put their 2 sense in and start talking about all the "work" that is involved in weeks of cleaning puppy poop and finding buyers blah blah blah...small price to pay to make a few thousand dollars for cleaning crap for 8 weeks. Not to mention I'd imagine if you are breeding and you're reputable, you'd have contacts to market your litters to the right people IF you've been involved enough with the breed and or sport.
ramgsd: I don't own a bitch and I am not a breeder nor have the desire at the present time to get involved in that aspect simply because I do not have the time to dedicate right now in my life. And what I mean by having the "time" is that I have little to 0 time for myself in a day and struggle to just work my own dog and it would not be fair to pups or anyone else in my household to take on that extra burden. Now if my kids were grown and I didn't have my own demanding business then I would have noooo problem cleaning some crap, making a few trips to the vet and becoming a salesperson for my pups to make several thousand dollars. That is minimal work to me to make that kind of money. Some people don't earn from their jobs all year what some people profit from breeding just a couple litters a year. And yes you get what you pay for. I've learned that the hard way and that is why I don't look for the "bargains". If I don't have the money to buy the best I can afford then I just wait until I do. I'd rather have nothing than have a pile of crap!
JRT, if you are able to fly all over the place to breed your dog I envy you; I myslef don't have that luxury to take the time to do that-but it sure would be nice. Some people prefer to pay a little more to stay closer to home because it's more convenient. Besides once you add up all your costs you have paid well over $1,000.00
It's ok if others disagree; it's just differences in opinnions.
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| I think the post pretty much lost any value it could have possibly had when Ram started acting well, "juvenile". |
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| Agar, I was talking to ramgsd buddy. Thanks though. |
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you take the bitch you either bought or raised to the stud that was bought or raised by his owner, and pay $1,000 for the stud fee. you produce 10 pups in the litter. now because of the good stud and bloodline you charge $1000 per pup. ($1,000-$1500 seeming to be the norm) and you keep one for yourself. 9 pups at $1,000 = $9,000 minus the 1,000 stud fee puts $8,000 in your pocket (less any transport fees)
You're kidding, right, or maybe you are drinking... your bath water? I'd say there's 50-75% chance that that female someone spends $1,000-1500. on a stud fee to breed probably WASN'T raised from a puppy by that person. More likey it was purschased as a finished dog, highly placed in competition, or sent to Germany for titles, survey, show rating, etc. for a small fortune. Once shipped over, for the last time (maybe) which costs $1,200+ these days, the new owner may well have hauled the dog all over creation, (maybe back overseas a few times too) for a year or two... or three, or??? to compete in events, spending more than some people make in a year on airfare, shipping, travel expenses, handler expenses, entriy fees, routine pre - and post-breeding health care, and, oh yeah, ADVERTISING (care to guess what a smallish color ad in Dog World magazine costs?) web site design ... 10 pups? I believe the average size GSD litter is 6-7, often a lot less after attrition. Add a couple of long-coat pups to the mix, and SURPRISE! You're lucky to break even. Throw in a C-section, maybe end up losing all the pups and the bitch, and UH OH... You're WAY in the hole. (again)
Add some jerk who wants you to guarentee everything from nose to toes, expects the puppy he only wants to pay a pet price for to fall out of his mother with Sch 3/KK1/V even if the idiot couldn't train a fly to land in a pile of horse manure, screws the dog all up and then demands his money back. It makes "normal" people wonder why any of us bother to try to breed good dogs in the first place.
The really bad news is that even with a $1,000 stud fee, the person who imported that top stud dog likely spent even MORE money promoting him, may well end up in the hole no matter how many $1,000 breedings he attracts.
SS |
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Breath Shelley Breath. OOOhhhsaaa OOOsahh.LOL Absolutely great points.Many variables go into all litters and it seems like the bitch is the one who has the most to lose. |
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Shelly we all know that there are cost with vets and so forth. Guess I just came from another breed of dogs where $1500 stud fees were the norm. Many of the top studs were not imported but were bred, born and raised here. But let's get real here. Your not loosing money on too many litters. If people were they would stop doing it. I'm talking the litter after stud fee and vets... you're still making money on the litter. (we're not talking expenses for training...) I'm not the IRS so don't tell me you not putting anything in your pocket.
But again as you stated, there is a lot of time and money going into making a great stud, so what's the big deal with $1000 fee for a proven producer? |
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By the way I wasn't drinking my bath water but I'd sure like a little of what you drink everynight. Particularly what it was when you trolled that one back up. |
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I agree with Harddawg.also no one ever says they are making money breeding german shepherds so i guess every one is breeding for the love of the breed and also to improve the breed ,that's lot of people loving german shepherds for free. |
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LOL...at free
yuck yuck yuck.... I know very well folks , some folks are making money. some are making a lot !
I dont think you can compare puppy price to stud fee because of the bitch's worth. Is the bitch of the same calibre as the stud?
It is capitolism, how much are the pups worth if you really want them sold? A top breeder with a champion dog is gonna ask what the market will bare. They aren't the same amount .
If its about bitching people will bitch about anything.
Sorry Ram, I AM drinking my bath water...:) |
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Chinese proverb,applies to this situation a lot as well: "Cheap things no good, good things no cheap". For a great, proven stud dog, with excellent genetics etc... 1000$ is fine. I amtalking about working line gsd, as the waters get much murkier in the prancing pony, go girl(shouting behind the fence to the AKC ring dog by the owner while the handler is trotting besides on a leash),show dog world...
If I had a great, excellent bloodlines females, I'd pay several times over that for a GREAT & PROVEN male stud fee. It all depends really what yours goals are out of breeding. One thing for sure is,you won't get rich, but can get some pocket money and a nice pup outof the litter in the deal. |
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The stud dog owner isnt responsible for the puppies or their possible return. Therefore part of the money made by the bitch owner not only goes towards the upkeep of mum and puppies to the date that they go on to their new homes, their registration, chipping and any health costs. They also have to ensure that there is appropriate places should the need arise and whether their are any other implications along the way. The stud dog owner also doesnt have to make sure that they have made good decisions on who is going to be allowed one of the pups and deal with the potential owners and their visits to see their new pup.
In another breed recently I heard of a puppy that went to its new home and within 24hrs had died, it was unfortunately one of those freak acts of nature, but the insurance would not pay out and the breeder was required to refund the purchase price to the buyer. Therefore if that bitch had only 1 puppy the breeder would be severely out of pocket in this instance. |
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From the owner of the stud dog view:
1) Buying a titled dog - not cheap
2) Buying a good puppy and title him - not cheap. Consider feeding, training, show fees, travel, handler fees etc...
A top stud dog is a dog that is highly titled in confirmation and work. Its a big investment.
From the bitch owners view:
Most bitch owners do not consider the cost of getting and owning a titled stud dog when there are plenty of untitled good males around for cheap so they push prices low.
But if you see on the long run, a stud dog price can come down to a break even but because of demand and supply prices remain high.
Stud dog owners have less risk than owners of breeding females. They do not have to worry about litter size and other stuff. They can actually produce more puppies than a bitch can in a year. example is
1 stud = 1 pup x 52 matings = 52 pups
1 bitch x 2 litters x 12 pups = 24 pups
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