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Classified: DDR sable boys import-bred SchH3 X Grafental
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straight backed, more to original line shepherd br (28 replies)
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| Can anyone tell me if anyone is breeding shepherds that are more like the originally developed lines of dog in Germany with the straighter backs?
I have been told they may be found by breeders in Germany, but have no specific info.
Thanks! |
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| You will find more straight back GS's in the working lines. |
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| Try working line GSD, nearest to the original standard. |
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| Why the roach back?
What is the cause of it?
or bred for it?
And why not seen as much in working lines?
I Have some answers but would like to get feedback from all of you out there re: this.
uwe |
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| Working lines rarely has this roach back look, have seen some but not as much as the showlines. |
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| HI,
This is something I found that seems more concise in explaining how the "roach back" was developed.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/royalair/pasttopresent.htm.
My only concern about strict working line dogs is that I have heard they do not have good temperments as a family dog.
I currently own a Shutzchund I female, german import show line, that is great, and would like to get a companion shepherd for her with the straight back lines. Thanks everyone for your comments! |
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| Working lines need more work and better handling, that's for sure. But there are lower drive ones that may be suitable for a less active home, all you need to do is research the lines and find a breeder willing to help you out. |
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| Working lines need more work and better handling, that's for sure. But there are lower drive ones that may be suitable for a less active home, all you need to do is research the lines and find a breeder willing to help you out. |
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| In my view, it is true that many working lines have straighter (albeit flatter to the true horizontal also)backs than many currently popular show lines (W.German). However, many of these straight backed working dogs have way too much length of back and loin and poor angulations with poor, incorrect movement, with slightness & weakness of longbones, and lack of chest development thus limiting their overall agility, endurance and working value, plus they don't look pleasing to the eye. But there are exceptions to this rule and some working dogs are deservedly V-rated in Zuchtschau, short in back and loin, have great angles at both ends, great bone and depth and properly angled long croups and powerful, balanced movement. These dogs exist and are worth their weight in gold and are the true "cross-over" dogs. Many of these pay a price in lower ranking in both profung and zuchschau for their owners for training for trying to win in both worlds, which is unbelievably difficult. But there are some of these dogs in the USA now which have obtained this high rank in both worlds.
The problem with most working lines is that many who breed and own working lines don't know what the FCI standard is regarding proportions and proper length and construction and do not breed to working lines known to produce correct dogs. They have focused almost totally on prey drive, trainability, etc. These folks just don't know they have a serious length and snipiness problem problem with their dogs, thinking this is acceptable and normal for the GSD. But again there are always exceptions, and I've seen some working line dogs that are absolutely stunning because of their structural correctness and good movement as well as their "fire in the eyes" correct Alpha type temperament. Some of the nicest of these have been very dark black sables, dark bi-colors and solid blacks.
Yes there are more roach backs in the W.German show lines, but also many great dogs who can be bought or bred to that are correct. For example, Batu Kennels has functioned with a ban on roach backs for years and one can obtain some dogs with very nicely structured backs from them or can use some of their excellent stud dogs. There are a notable number of other smaller zuchtschau kennels too that do not produce and sell roach backs (in W.Germany and other countries too).
A serious roach causes as many movement problems as a long stringy, straight back. Both are very unpleasant to view as well as are seriously incorrect structures in the GSD. Too bad so many are kennel blind to this as they are important issues for the future of the breed. But when a working line or a showline dog is correct in structure and mind, then it is a "TOTAL GERMAN SHEPHERD" and a real sight to behold. There are stud dogs like this out there and they need to used to advance the breed. |
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| The apparent origin of the roach back was a compensatory over-reaction to the long saggy backs linked to Rolf Onsabrucker Land, a pillar in the breed. He produced some fantastic qualities buty als also produced some long weak saggy backs that severely limited the working value of the GSD. W.Gwerman breeders quickly over-reacted by overbreeding to breeding to stud dogs and lines that prodced ever increasing arch back, finding that even a long arch can allow a dog to deliver a long period of movement (work) without sagging. Overtime they became kennel blind to this until the esteemed Dr. Rummel placed and absolute ban on placing these dogs in the higher rankings in zuchtschau. When he left the SV Presidency, his successors began to progressuively allow these dogs back in to the higher rankings. Some say they did this for their own economic gains by promoting their own bloodlines which carried the roach backs heavily. |
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| <<>>
Preston that has got to be one of the best explainations I've had on this. Thank you.
Truly understanding the History of the breed and understanding the reasons why things got the way they did (split). This is what every breeder needs to know in order to make an informed decision on their breedings and how that's going to effect the future of the German Shepherd Dog.
Uwe |
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| Funny, but on occasion I see at some SV style conformation shows in the USA, showline dogs that are straighter in the back. They do not place well, as they look "outdated" compared to today's popular types in the ring. If you study past Seigers and dogs that placed well say 20, even 25 or so years ago - they look similar to that. Take a time machine and these dogs would be placing well and the ones today would be considered the odd ones out.
I believe this dog you are describing is being produced today, but is frowned on by show breeders as being somewhat 'ugly' and frowned on by working breeders as being 'show' - so these dogs just don't get much notice. The question in my mind is this: are the breeders of these dogs breeding for this look, or do they just have less popular breeding stock for some reason, and this is what pops out?? Can't say.
My opinion anyway, for what it's worth.
By the way, I hate roach backs and I don't think male GSDs should ever look "pretty". |
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| Hi, two questions...
Which of the high ranking male dogs of now o'days would you consider sraighter backed without the roach????
And Why do the dogs is the siger show also seem to be over angulated?? I find this almost as bad as the roached back their back legs look like they are falling off!!! |
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| Preston,
That was the most an excellent piece of scientific/historical backround, on this subject I have ever discovered! Our vet has questioned me many times as to why my shepherd, like all she sees in the German line have the roach back. She said your piece was fantastic and will pass it on to her collegues as well.
Now I well take time to find a dog of this quality.
My purpose is strictly to have a Shepherd more like the original line that was created stictly as a companion and pet for me and my Shcutzhund I female. I have had it with competiton phase. It was an experience...
Thanks again for the info. ANd also everyone has been so helpful and generous in responding and helping me. This is a nice forum to be in :)!
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| We have 8 GSDs working lines, all are great house dogs... great with children, other pets, etc. Most have their CGCs and some TDIs... |
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| LaPorte, you are so correct about the great GSDs of about 20-25 years ago. I have an old film from the Sieger Show in W.Germany for 1982 (it was filmed by Ed Frawley). The dogs were absolutely fantastic then. Some had red or orange with black saddles, but the dogs of today have more red. I attended this show and watched Natan Pelztierfarm go Sieger a second time. Structurally he was perfect and his temperament was awesome. I guess he didn't produce as well as hoped, but he himself was awesome. Complete poetry in motion and hard biting yet very outgoing, stable and friendly. I have been told by those in the know that Fanto Hirchel, also a double Sieger was structurally the most perfect GSD that ever existed. I never saw him but I understand he had a perfectly conformed back to the standard, as did Natan. Many of the dogs I saw had much more powerful and balanced movement and better front angles matched to extremely powerful rears with no long lower thighs, and with short hocks. I saw a number of cross-over dogs (highly ranked in profung), most black and tan and black sable that should have placed much higher in my view, causing me to wonder if there was some kind of political penalty or disadvantage for competing in both worlds. It appeared to me that the dogs were more outgoing and robust in temperament, and the males had strong wide male heads, deep chests and short backs and loins. It matters not to me if a good looking, good acting and good moving GSD is from working or show lines. A good dog is just plain good no matter the source and there are a significant number of them out there, many of which do not get the attention or respect they deserve. It's always about the individual animal more than anything else if you are looking for that special dog to own and live in the house with and also about what that animal can produce if used properly. Many of the folks who have these special dogs really don't know what they have because they aren't deeply connected to clubs or politics. Some of the greatest GSDs are bred, sold or owned by small relatively unknown GSD enthusiasts who have no chance to win due to their isolation from the big breeder/judges or breed wardens. Breeding a great GSD that is correct to the standard with a great temperament is always a rarity in show or working lines and when they appear they should be used. It always comes down to one's personal knowlege of the standard and what constitutes correct structure, movement and temperament. This knowledge is available for those who want to acquire it and are committed to keep from developing "kennel blindness" (the self- rationalization that one's faults in their GSDs aren't really there). I saw Sgr. Yasko Farbenspiel in person closeup and he was great in everyway, structure, movement, masculine traits, pigment, etc.
I have seen movies of Ursus and he was awesome too.
And there have always been great GSDs emerging from the masses here and in W.Germ and other countries. |
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Which Lines... were used to COMPENSATE on the ROLF blood... What Preston narrated as lines that..." produced the ever increasing arch back..." Are they similar to the ROUND backs ??? common with Rikkor Badboll lines.??? Alf Norfelsen was one that was used to counteract the SAGGING back... Who else was used to correct ROLF Blood.??? |
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Nice explanation Preston, I never knew that and it explains quite a bit. That's why I like this forum, I am always learning something new from people like you that helps out with my understanding of the breed. Thanks 
I don't show my boy, I have done years of K9 training with him, take him for "rides" whenever the weather and what I am doing permits. I recently took him to a show (cheering on my friend with her show shelties) and the judges outside on break fell in love with him, they all commented on how he looks like the "old fashioned" GSDs, one judge was around in the 70s and hadn't seen too many that look like what he remembers. According to a vet friend who has been in GSDs for 50+ years and is the go-to guy for OFAs and analyzing structure, movement, etc, this boy is one of his favorites. Of course I am just so objective when it comes to my boy  LOL
P.S. Someday I will get a really good picture of him, I just have to be faster with the camera, he knows when I am taking the picture and always moves |
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Working dogs *can* be great house dogs--but it depends on the individual dog and you do have to meet their exercise needs. And to be fair, the show lines need a lot of exercise too--most big dogs do.
As far as getting a straight back, positioning/stacking really does make a huge difference.
The thread Ranchinglady linked has an excellent discussion--I wish all the pictures were still there to be seen!
But here's an example of one of my own young bitches, Blackthorn's Hunter. She's out of the 2x Universal Sieger Alex v Eisenhaus, but she's 100% working lines. What's amazing is that although I really like the way she looks in these pictures... she doesn't really look like the same dog in person.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/512076.html
And another shot (I tweaked the color on this one b/c the flash was on and overexposed it)
And in this one, she is overstacked, but I still liked it best of all the pictures.
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Thanks Sunsilver. Your Alf must be incredibly handsome  LOL. Send me a picture, I paint (ok, reality check, I apply acrylics and watercolor to canvas or paper, every so often I get lucky) so I am always looking for good dog pictures to use hmcfireball@comcast.com
Giblaut, beautiful girl, love her looks, she looks like my Loki and she looks like a strong dog. I should teach Loki to stack so I can see how he looks compared to others. Is she what is called a bi-color? I was told my Loki (above picture is overexposed, bottom one is natural sunlight) is boderline bi-color but closer to black and tan. I wish there was a good website that had color pictures of all the different registered colors (hint, hint all you knowledgable people).
.jpg)
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I would say your Loki is a well-pigmented black and tan.
Hunter is a bicolor--she has the toemarks, but she is a fairly light bicolor.
Coal is a darker bicolor, but they come even darker, with lots of smudging down their legs and on their feet:
I don't consider it a bicolor unless the dog has the black down the front of the legs and the toemarks.
This is what I consider a blanket black and tan or a dark black and tan--she's the mom of both Hunter and Coal:
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Thanks Giblaut...that explains quite a bit. Again, absolutely gorgeous and strong looking dogs. I would take any of them in an instant..... |
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Mindhunt, I could only wish that Alf HAD been mine! How nice it would have been to have owned a Sieger! He was one of the dogs used to correct the soft backs produced by Rolf.
My male GSD does have similar color, but alas, is a rescue and has no papers, and, of course, his conformation is nowhere near as good. He's a blanket black and tan:
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Sunsilver, he has a good head and he looks like he has a personality....not that I am any expert. |
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Mindhunt,now that's what I call a GSD.
The colour and shape are spot on. |
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