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Classified: Djenges longcoat male puppy
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Litter Quality/Quantity (15 replies)
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| Does the quality of the litter improve the older and more experience the bitch is? When I say quality I mean temperament and conformation. Also does the number of pups inrease the older and more experience the bitch is? |
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| Genetics is genetics. The BITCH may have a better temperament as she gets older (being around you all the time for many years, for example), and hence, pass that TYPE of temperament on to her puppies (because they are around her and learn from her behavior), but genetically speaking, conformation is a combination of not just the dam's, but also the sire's genetics. What you will get out of each litter can be meticulously planned, and even then, there are surprises that you do not always expect!
The number of pups is dependent upon how many eggs the female releases, and how many of those eggs are fertilized (being bred at "just" the right time). There are a certain number of eggs in a given female, and once they are gone, they are gone.
Feel free to email me privately if you have any other questions--I am always happy to answer. :) |
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| Thanks so much for the information. Then why do people always say wait unti the bitch is 2 before she is bred? I understan breeding a female on her first heat at around 7 months is too young but what about breeding her on her second heat. Most females are around 14-16 months why is that considered too young? |
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| I personally think the quantity diminishes as the bitch gets older....less eggs to fertilize.
I think temperament is all genetic. Of course you can ruin good temperament and I have seen it done, but for the most part you start with good temperament and keep it going by socializing the dog and giving the dog confidence. The same goes for quality.
I am amazed how many people breed to just breed and don't spend the time to truly look at their female and try to improve the next generation by breeding to a male that will help her faults.
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| In Europe and it appears most folks in the states now are showing and titling on the SV system or some resemblence of that system, and by the time you comply with all requirements for breeding(BH, SchH1, AD, conformation rating, and breed survey) the female is 2 years old, it just works out that way. By that time the female has some maturity under her belt and is prepared for motherhood. Sort of like a high school drop out is not ready for motherhood, although she is physically capable of having a child.
Stephen |
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| Thanks so much for the insight. Also a lot of breeders in America wait until the female is two because she can't be OFA'd until then, correct? Is it a bad idea to wait until a female is around 4 years old to breed her for her first time? |
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| I have to disagree on the quantity as they get older. Some might. My sch2 female was first bred at 5 yrs old, 8 pups. 6 years old 12 pups, and last summer at 7 years old 9 pups. She is now retired from breeding, but her numbers didn't really decrease as they get older. I see more problems with linebreeding depression and dogs that only produce 1-3 pups due to heavy linebreeding versus larger litters.
Gimme10mins, She can be ofa'd anytime from 4 months on, just not certified until 2 yrs. Some breeders are opting to do a stamps now since we can now do them here in the states and get a rating from Germany.
Angela |
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| If Im understanding you correctly vomlandholz you attributed some part of a female having a small litter to heavy linebreeding, wut is considered heavy linebreeding? How would heavy linebreeding play a factor in litter size? Would you say that an example of heavy linebreeding would be this: 5,5 - 5 Zamb Wienerau, 5 - 5 Jeck Noricum, 4-4 Max Loggia dei Mercanti, 5-5 Quitta Ehrenfeste, and 4-3 Ursus Batu? This is the linebreeding on one dog. |
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| If Im understanding you correctly vomlandholz you attributed some part of a female having a small litter to heavy linebreeding, wut is considered heavy linebreeding? How would heavy linebreeding play a factor in litter size? Would you say that an example of heavy linebreeding would be this: 5,5 - 5 Zamb Wienerau, 5 - 5 Jeck Noricum, 4-4 Max Loggia dei Mercanti, 5-5 Quitta Ehrenfeste, 5-5 Kimon Alhedy's Hoeve and 4-3 Ursus Batu? This is the linebreeding on one dog. |
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| What I've noticed is that breeders who continuously generation thru generation who heavily linebreed say on 3-5 dogs every single generation seem to have anywhere from 1 to 5 pups. Obviously showlines are more heavily linebred vs working lines. |
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| vomlandholz -- i think that is interesting -- i have heard a number of people discus 1, 2 , 3 pups being whelped in their matings but didn't think about the linebreeding factor , which IMO is contributing dramatically to the frequent/consistent major health issues in the GSD . -- not only physical attributes but obviously the physiological attributes [ hormone/endocrine system ] must be geneticaaly influenced -- so i must tend to agree with your statementabout the influence of linebreeding and litter size-- just as pancreatic insufficiency has become very prominent in the GSD--good comment vomlandholz |
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| Willis's book on gsd genetics discusses linebreeding depression and it appears to be an accurate representation of what I've been seeing. I think that if you do progesterone testing, know what day to breed and still continuously get small litters, I would really think about doing an outcross within your lines for future generations.
Angela |
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| You have asked some very good questions. Breeding Quality dogs is all about understanding the Breed, and the merits of potential Sires and Dams. The Bitch should have traits other than "I love my girl and I want a puppy out of her". That is not saying this is your thoughts, but with some breeders this is their only standard.
To answer you question; why wait until 2 years of age. The dog must be 2 years old to get an OFA certification on hips. Also I believe the dog must be proven on the Schutzhund field, or in the show ring. Passing a Breed test would even be better.
Schutzhund trials, Conformation shows, and Breed Test are all about testing the dogs genetics traits. The dogs that do well are good ones to breed. I appreciate your questions, it is an indication that you are looking to breed quality dogs. |
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| Does the male and female growing up together play a role in the quantity of puppies. For instance if you bought a female at 6 months and also bought the same aged male at the same time when it came time for breeding would that increase the number of pups? You know especially if they live together and she is already comfortable with him? Would the the likelihood of tying on the right day be greater and no need for progesterone testing? |
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| I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with it. There are some females that will stand from day 1 all the way thru their cycle for a male, others that won't stand at all, and others that will only stand when they're ready. Doesn't matter if they're comfortable. |
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| One other aspect of quality that will help you. Make sure that you video your dogs mating. And make sure they are in the Front Yard. This way you will have proof that you ain't no BYB. |
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Classified: Czech Working Puppies
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