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Classified: VA3:Erasmus van Noort/ Grandchild
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What I love and hate about Sch........ (61 replies)
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This one's for you Bob, just so there is no mis-conceptions............
What I love about Sch...........
1) The control and beautiful OB. Top level Sch Ob is an absolute thing of beauty.
2) Tracking--This aspect of the sport preserves a very benificial trait in a working dog. I have seen Police dogs who were started in Sch who both track and air scent. They are impressive. In my opinion a dog that can track, are far superior in locating suspects when it comes to police service work, than dogs who only air scent.
3) That it is large enough and popular enough that many people can actually do a bite work dog sport.
4) I like watching the dogs run the blinds. Esp if they are fast and do not slow down when they round them.
5) Long sends are always fun to watch.
What I hate about Sch........
1) The stuck up, snobby ass attitude of many who participate in it. Mostly how they talk shit about all other sport venues. Don't get me wrong, I have met some very nice people at Sch events and there are some stuck up people in other sport venues, but nowhere near like some of the hard chargin' Sch folks.
2) The jumps are too easy.
3) I can't stand the fact that it is a pattern, with the same excercise performed at neausium.
4) There is no environmental stressors or testing of the dog. (I have the same complaint about French Ring)
5) Overall the bite work portion is not a great test of the dog, except maybe at the highest levels.
So in case anyone was curious about my actual opinion of the sport. I just got irritated when someone accuses me of bashing a sport or venue. I may poke a little fun, and frankly out of all the bitework dog sports, Sch is my least favorite, but I admire it for what it is and admire anyone who spends enough time and effort to title. As someone who has titled a dog before, I know first hand the commitment it takes to achieve that acomplishment and would never take that away from anyone, not matter what the sport.
Most of the time, if I say something negative about the sport, it is the fact that the bitework is not that great of a test. That combined with the scoring can allow for some pretty shitty dogs to get titled. Then those dogs get bred, Then...........well we all know the rest
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I second this thought!!!
What I hate about Sch........
1) The stuck up, snobby ass attitude of many who participate in it. Mostly how they talk shit about all other sport venues. Don't get me wrong, I have met some very nice people at Sch events and there are some stuck up people in other sport venues, but nowhere near like some of the hard chargin' Sch folks.
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You both make me laugh:
Ya Schutzhund is the only people with attitude problems....hahaha. |
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i'm not saying all sch. people, in fact, most are rather helpful and pleasant. There are however a few that like nothing better than to attack and insult others.
They hand out insults a lot more freely, than they do advice. |
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| No, no it's not but it deffinatly leads the pack in that aspect and a HUGE reason I don't participate in the sport, at least in my area. Some people just take themselves waaay too seriously. |
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and some people are clueless:
But thats okay, it takes lots of people to row the boat.
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| Yes some are clueless, not sure why you get so personal when someone doesn't worship the sport. A least the OP likes something about Schutzhund and posted it. |
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I find this very interesting. I have never seen multiple threads started by schutzhund people about what's wrong with or why they think other grip sports are shit. If they are out there, would someone please link me to them? Nor have I ever heard schutzhund people at trials going on and on ad nauseum with what they think is wrong with other grip sports. Please, before you get started it's not because they don't think there is no room for improvement in other sports.
I also have never seen great droves of people who are snotty or mean to newcomers or outsiders at trials or at club training. Of course there are snotty people, but there are snotty people in every avenue of life. I would guess that if someone came to a trial who was not involved in the sport and spent their time at that event telling everyone who would listen what they didn't like about schutzhund, it could get a little snotty and defensive too - but who could blame them!?
Kitkat if I recall, you went to ONE trial and afterwards you were very complimentary about the way you were treated at that trial.
If you don't like schutzhund, then fine move on and find something you do like. For those of you who want to complain you have to do schutzhund in order to breed survey your GSDs for breeding, your chief complaint always seems to be that schutzhund is way too easy, your sport is so much harder, so there you go. Get that pesky schH1 when you want to get a breedsurvey, it should be no problem for you it's so easy, won't take any time at all. Then you can get back to your "real" and perfect sports.
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| I have seen those droves Susan. Went to a couple clubs where not one person came over and said hi or introduced themsleves, watched as not one member supported another with words of encouragment, when another member left the field. I left thinking...this isn't fun. And thats the best club around. I have however driven 3 hrs 1 way to a great club that embraced us like old friends not caring that we came from another venue. I just wish I had the time and gas to do it twice a week. |
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I'm sorry, 4Pack, that sucks and is wrong. Some people take themselves WAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously. The unfortunate thing is as you know, schutzhund is the most popular grip sport, but that's only compared to the other grip sports! If I had to make a high school analogy I would have to say grip sports as a whole in the USA are like the chess club, not understood or liked by the rest of the school and completely ridiculed by the popular clicks (I wonder who are the popular kids - AKC agility or maybe doggie freestyle dancing???  ) So I guess bad clubs with snotty members stick out like a sore thumb because there just aren't that many clubs in the first place.
The truth of the matter is all grip sport afficianados need to stick together in the USA, especially in this age of PETA and the current climate of breed ban and dangerous dog legislation that seems to have swept the nation. We actually need each other, now more than ever. |
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I can't say I love it or hate it, what I have seen of it is interesting.
It's easy to see some taking it all too seriously.
I consider it a limited but valuable test of some abilities, but not the know all, see all that some make it out to be.
No doubt it's a lot of work and you have to respect those who are successful.
Beyond that I cannot say, I have no practical experience to relate too.
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You know folks, i really do not know what you are talking about of course i do not live over where you Guys are but i cannot see how one country can differ so much from another
For we do not get this attitude over here, everyone supports each other it is as simple as that,
There is none of this I am better than you of course some are more forwards than others but the ones with more experience will help the Guys or Girls with less experience and always do
I am an Englishman and i joined the clubs over here and i did not speak the language much so it was difficult for my brother and myself
We were made welcome, We got to see with our own eyes who was the best handlers of dogs in the Clubs i watched listened and when i had a problem which i needed help with i went to the Guys who i thought were the best, I asked for there help and they gave it to me and so it has gone onto this day, We are part of the Clubs now and friends with all of them they treat us two Engels brothers as one of them, that is all anyone can ask for,
One THING i will say to any one taking up this sport, Listen and learn, and above all be consistent, If you are going to turn up at the club, then go regardless of weather not just be a fair weather trainer that will not get you respect from anyone in any sport,
True Schutzund people like consistency they turn out all weathers and there is no excuse for the weather unless you travel a long way and driving is dangerous to get there, that is different but a phone call or mail in time to say you will not be coming goes a long way
Above all a beginner should listen and not be heard only to ask advice
I have had this dozens of times in the pigeon sport i give advice the person has a short memory and then later he tells me what i told him say 12 months earlier,
You can guess my reaction to him saying that and my reply to him, me being a very polite understanding sort of Guy that i am
One last thing the Schutzund sport does not just revolve around Protection and biting if you have a dog with a great Bite then thats great
Schutzund needs obedience in a Dog and a rapport with its handler all phases of the Schutzund sport revolves around obedience of the Dog whether it be Obed itself or tracking or Protection the Dogs Obed will affect all three phases so make sure the Dog is at one with you the handler to me the MOST important thing and hugely important,
Sorry for carrying on a bit another marathon letter
Steve1 |
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Gard:
Your original post on the other thread starts out as a shot about shcutzhund, So don,t get your panties in a bunch when I respond in kind.
Now if you have read any thing I ,ve ever written about the Schutzhund training you would know I disagree with the award format of the venue. As I have stated before I believe that if I were the all powerful OZ I would split the "sport" titles from the Schutzhund titles. The sport titles would not be or have anything to do with breed quality or representation and it would stay just as it is. The Schutzhund titles would be a tougher more realistic representation of a "Breed Worthiness" test .
You have also never heard me on this board or can quote me as taking a negitive swipe at other dog venues. So why would I start? just for conversations sake? No. Matter of fact the last time I was involved with this type of thread I invited the folks to com e compete in this venue so they could experience it and I would try theres just to widen my experience and all I got from that attempt was a cold shoulder. |
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I must say this thread has turned to crap pretty quickly. But is that suprising considering it is pretty much about crap. Come on people, look past the ends of your noses. This is nothing new. I've trained with ring, french and Mondio and schutzhund people, and people that do a bit of both and compete in multiple venues.
there is NOTHING that is exclusive to schutzhund clubs. There isn't even anything that you're more likely to find in a schutzhund club than a ring club or anything else. You have lots of good people, some bad and everything in between. If you don't think there are arrogant people in whatever sport you're training in, you might want to look around a bit more, or maybe look in the mirror, you just might be that person.
I've heard as much back stabbing and gripes about what somebody is doing wrong during training almost everywhere i've been. Some are more open about it than others, but none were free from it, not by a long shot. One of the most controlling, can't do wrong, and who's way is always the right way, type people I know trains in Mondio ring. it's so bad the goals you set for your dog aren't even right sometimes. talk about high horses.
and why does anybody think this is exclusive to schutzhund or dog sports in general? Listen to the parents at a high school football game, or at a little league game. Or listen to the stupid talking heads on tv or half the d-bags in here talk about politics. or religion, or talk about cars, or tv's or what type of driver to use on the golf course. There's always a group of people that just think they know better and treat others like shit. It isn't just schutzhund, and the notion that it doesn't exist in other countries??? WTF? do you actually live in another country? i've heard more than a few tirades about other competitors from trainers and judges from other countries.
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| I have heard that in Ring Sports, there is a minimum required height of both the climbing wall and the jump, but those can be increased at the discretion of the competitor and when completed successfully can result in higher points than just doing the minimum? Off the top of my head, that seems like something that would be good to incorporate in schutzhund too. This way the jump and wall as they are now could be the minimum required, but the jump could be higher and a vertical wall added for those so inclined. Obviously it is not so simple to work out, but maybe it is something to consider anyway. |
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zdog
if by chance you are referring to my post then i guess you are saying i am lying but thats okay if what i say is right,
But when i say there is no back stabbing in the clubs i belong to then i mean just that, there is no back stabbing, Perhaps i live in a country where people have a bit more respect and tolerance towards each other i do not know i have never had the pleasure of seeing your country and judging the people first hand in real life
Why should there be any back stabbing anyway
The whole idea of having a Sch Club over here is to have fun training Dogs in a serious way but still fun, If a Dog in the club reaches the heights of being selected for the WUSV and next best over here in the VVDH Championship of Belgium then everyone pulls for that partnership, and that is it and to that end we do have one going for the Belgian Championship later this month
I have always found everyone helpful if they think differently of me then they do not say ,and by there manner they think me okay thats my take on it and i too get on fine with everyone
As regards Ring Sports etc i cannot say i have no time to do anything in my day than i have now
I am happy in the sport i do, i try and work within the rules laid down and thats it if my dog has a fault i try and correct it if i have a fault then i make sure i correct it,
i enjoy the company and the training when it stops being what it is now or i get too old to carry on then it will finish, at the moment everything is good i have a VERY promising young Pup to work with so i am a happy Guy, I have some good friends on this forum to correspond with and thats good so all the negative stuff is meaningless to me i hate being negative in anything
Steve1
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Then I guess Belgium is much different than any of the other European countries I have been to and the people are much different than any of the people I have met there and in other countries as well. South America, Europe, America, the people have been pretty much the same. Some cultural differences for sure, but when it came down to respect towards others??? Most good, some so nice you never want to leave, and some assholes. I really believe that Belgium is probably the same, and don't believe for a second that there aren't more than a few trainers talking behind people's backs.
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Sue - "I wonder who are the popular kids - AKC agility..." I had to laugh. There are SOME people extremely snotty in that venue. The only people that were welcoming at all had working breeds, but they warned that you shouldn't have your dog hang out at all, or better yet go to a different venue, because big drivey dogs makes everyone there uncomfortable... even on good behavior. This is agility, isn't drive a good thing?!
In my experience, in Schutzhund you will be welcomed initially, but you are walking on eggshells. I would LOVE to do Schutzhund, both for my dogs, and to learn more about them, but I don't have the luxury of clubs close enough.
What I draw from the snottiness in both venues is just how competitive the individuals are and how important the "sport" is to them. They are not there just to keep busy with their dogs, and if you are just there for the dogs, they don't really want to waste their time on you. This is how I can't help but see it. However, I warn that this will be the downfall of the sports. In AKC agility most of the competitors (where I've been) are 40+, in Schutzhund maybe a bit younger. You cast away enough young people, they won't come back, and your sport will die. Encourage everyone, make it fun for all, and maybe it will grow, and we won't have to travel so far to find a club anymore.
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| Oh dear! I didn't mean to imply AKC Agility people or Doggy Dancers are snotty, I only know a few agility people (and they are nice enough) and I don't know any Doggy Dancers. I just was wondering out loud if grip sports are the weirdo chess club members who are the popular kids in the USA dog world? |
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It's probably a people thing in general. The people that treat their sport, whatever it is (agility, Schutzhund, riding, chess, etc.) competitively have little patience for those who don't. The more elite a sport is, and the more time that needs invested to really make it in it, probably increases these emotions. I have an obedience club I train with and they are very welcoming to anyone, but I don't think anyone there has hopes yet towards a UD, much less a OTCH... we are all just people who love to train and spend time with our dogs... we have different training philosophies, methods, and past accomplishments... but we are there to learn, not create the next champion. My experience with obedience/rally trials is warm and supportive. Many people there are titling their first dog, whereas the AKC agility trials are mostly people working towards their MACHs (sometimes MACH 2s, 3s, etc.).
I am far off the original topic now. So I'll add this: I LOVE the focus a good Schutzhund dog has in obedience!! In AKC Obedience that isn't required and can be detrimental if the dog tends to crowd you because of it.  |
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I suppose the advanatge is that you can compete against other countries if you are intressted in that. Other than that I find SCH a bit boring and artificial, more so than other protectionsports, too much obedience in the tracking and no practical search exercizes, the bitework a bit too easy and boring. But I can appreciate a strong dog doing a nice SCH-routine and realize there is much work behind it.
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"I just was wondering out loud if grip sports are the weirdo chess club members who are the popular kids in the USA dog world?"
I knew you were just having fun. I think the grip sports are the Fonzies: have a bad reputation, they're the motorcycle gang, but they're really the best people you could ever meet, and are NOT what they appear to be to the uninformed!
Sadly, I think the "popular kids" nowadays are those who think having a dog spend ANY time outside is literally a crime. I hear it all the time. Have an outdoor run? You're CRUEL. Have a dog spend a night outside, even with a straw-filled insulated doghouse? You're a monster. I was showing a co-worker photos of a litter of puppies (not mine). The puppies were adorable and you know what she said? "They're on STONES!" She was horrified. The photos were taken in a large, immaculately clean, gravelled dog yard. "You mean they lie on STONES? That's horrible!" She couldn't get past it. Of course there was a beautiful dog house and shade trees, and the puppies spent a lot of time inside the actual home of the breeder. But their exercise yard was gravelled - much cleaner and parasite free than grass or dirt! And she has 3 dogs of her own. Obviously not working dogs. Meanwhile she NEVER takes her dogs for a walk. Actually, now that I think about it, of all the people in my neighborhood who own dogs, and it's probably the majority of households, I can only think of TWO other houses who EVER take their dogs off the property for a walk, and a "walk" for these poor canines is: for one of them it's once around the block, and for the other it's once a day down to the corner and back (literally less than a 2-minute walk). That's IT.
But that's how you're supposed to raise a dog today. It NEVER goes outside and is NEVER off a leash. EVER.
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| I do like your analogy better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Tess
I belonged to a motor cycle Gang when i was young and i am a nice Guy, well i think i am
zdog
If any trainers talk about me behind my back then i would not know would i,
I guess they might but i would not think it negative otherwise they would give me up as a lost cause and that has not happened yet, and i do not think it will in the future
There are some good generous people about, who want to see others do good and if they do good then that is benifit to the club
My main club has been going on now for over 60 years and the Guys are proud of it Many great Handlers and Dogs have passed on over time from this Club
The point is to work hard at what you want to do if you slack and show no interest then yes you will be given up as a lost cause and probably be talked about because you will have given up yourself
Me i love it sometimes i go and it is not so great the Dog does not work as well as you expect, then another time you train and everything clicks it is great
Saturday i tracked Goran He was not so good and made a few mistakes, This Morning i tracked him again he went like a dream, and he knew it you could see the dog was pleased with himself and of course they love to be praised
He is flesh and Blood and they and us get an off day, So these top Guys who help know that things will not always go right even with there own dogs but they train again to put it right and normally thinks work out
Steve1 |
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I agree, the point is to have a great time. That's just it, most of us do. I think our club is pretty cool and most of the people i've met are generally good people. But like any group there's always a few that standout the most, and usually it's not for good reasons.
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steve1, that's what I meant. That you ARE a nice guy, but some people probably heard "motorcycle gang" and thought the worst. Same with grip sports. People think "how horrible" without knowing anything about the people or the dogs involved.
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sueincc
Kitkat if I recall, you went to ONE trial and afterwards you were very complimentary about the way you were treated at that trial.
Everyone at Shelley's was very nice.Those are NOT the sch people I was referring to, In fact, YOU, are one of those that I consider rude. If there is a Band Wagon of insult, YOU are one of the first ones to jump on it, as are a few others ON THIS BOARD !!!
As I recall, when I said I was going to the trial, I was told, don't go by some, and just generally discouraged by others. Those are the sch people I was referring to.
I had a great time at Shelleys.Hell, Shelly is ONE OF THE BEST people involved in the sport. She's honest, truthful and funny! Jackie was GREAT, John, more helpful than anyone knows, and so on and so on.
ENCOURAGEMENT... If they liked me or not. THAT should be the name of the game!
I have several people I have met from the board that I talk to, PM and e-mail. EVERYONE OF WHICH is Good People.
Sometimes they tell you what you'd really rather not hear, but can say it with class and cooth.They have better things to do than lie in wait of someone to attack.
If I never get a dog titled , I'm still learning something new everyday, be it pedigrees, training, ailments, whatever. I'm not a self proclaimed KNOW-IT ALL.
That's the reason I come here, to learn about the sport, and the dog
sueincc ;surely you don't want to rehash that whole business do you? YOU CAN RE-HASH,re-trash and re-bash me sue and I would do it the same way again. If my dog is given 50/50...I'm shooting for the 50 that they will live!!!That'sa just me!
That is one of the things I don't care for with some sch. people, NOT ALL, so PLEASE DON"T THINK I'M SAYING it is You, or most sch people. Dogs seem to be easily disposed of, when they have served their purpose in the sport.
They are re-homed, handled by this one, that one and the other one, until like Amanda and Adrie, No-One knows WHO had them last, and that to me is wrong.
dogs are considered assets to many breeders. A commodity easily sold and traded off.
Just check the classifieds and see how many older dogs are for sale.All my dogs are family members, the only place they go after they lived their lives, is "Maple Rest". |
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| Kitkat: You have NEVER heard me talk shit about other grip sports or for that matter, any other dog sports. In fact you have never heard me talk shit to anyone who was actually interested in learning about schutzhund and in fact I did nothing but encourage you to title your blue dog when you started frequenting this board and defended your right to do so. Your ONLY problem with me came about because me and many others were sick and tired of you and your buddies hooting, hollering and carrying on and destroying other people's threads with your stupid feud. That and the totally bizarre thread about the poisoned dog - surely you don't want to rehash that whole business do you? |
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| I enjoy schutzhund immensily....the people are no different than anywhere else people congregate...some good...some bad. Just like anything else in life...you'll meet people you like and dislike....even dogs you won't and will like. |
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Kit Kat
Please get your facts right before you talk about things you do not have facts for i.e Most Sch folk seem to dispose of there dogs when they have served there purpose,
How do you know this have you first hand seen of this being done not here say but actually know people who have done it first hand and i do not mean just one case for you are tarring Sch people with the same brush,
We think more of our Dogs than you seem to, No way would i ever let a dog of mine suffer as you did, and i say this and care not what you or others think of that statement
No way would i let a Dog become over weight as you do your own admission
and by doing so chance the probable health problems the dog may encounter later on if not stopped
Lady you think you are being kind but in fact quite the opposite, You said your piece and i have said mine i hate talk the way you do when you are not in a position to really know how Sch people are unless you train day in day out with them for a long time and you have not, that again by your own admission
We are no different than any other Dog lover We enjoy our sport we, well i think you bond more with your dog than having a couch potato type of dog. The Dog looks more to you and trusts you more in fact they would die for you when you really bond with a Dog
The Dog is healthier than a normal easy living Dog
You test the Nerves and Characteristics of the Dog, You find out how stable the Dog is when put under a bit of Pressure
TO ME all these points are better in a dog for breeding qualities, than a dog that just eats drinks and sleeps, But most people do not bother to put themselves out thats the plain truth of the matter the owner makes excuses for not having to get there idle butt out of the bloody chair or say they are not interested in Sch but the same people are interested in breeding from there dogs they have time to do that with the hope of a few dollars coming there way then gripe on about a sport
German Shepherd Dogs were bred to Work not grow fat laying on a settee
Steve1 |
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"Dogs seem to be easily disposed of, when they have served their purpose in the sport. They are re-homed, handled by this one, that one and the other one.."
What are you talking about?? You've obviously never been around a lot of SchH folk I know. LOL, I think everybody at our club has 1 or 2 (or more!) dogs lying around the hearth either because they were "first dogs" and didn't work out as a SchH prospect, or they got old, or it just wasn't their sport. And the only "disposal" is of money out of the owners' pockets to keep them in a long and happy retirement sprawling on the sofa. Be careful about making snap judgments based on cruelties you've read about and look around at the people actually doing the sport day in and day out and living with their dogs.
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Steve1,
I have never griped on the sport. I track with 2 of my dogs on a regular basis. I practice OB with most of them!
For you to say my dogs are couch potatoes and ALL over weight is an uninformed statement as far as I'm concerned. ALL my dogs are very active. My back yard is NOW fenced with over 500 feet of chain link fence. They have the option to come and go as they please.
And, my dogs eat, what they want to eat. They have access to food 24/7. they don't need to perform for an extra scoop. I have enough dogs that I WILL NOT DEAL WITH FOOD AGGRESSION!!
Can't help but notice also, several of those that keep their dogs in tip top shape, havn't kept the extra spoonfuls of pudding from their lips!
I think I made myself pretty clear when I said
That is one of the things I don't care for with some sch. people, NOT ALL, so PLEASE DON"T THINK I'M SAYING it is You, or most sch people. Dogs seem to be easily disposed of, when they have served their purpose in the sport.
They are re-homed, handled by this one, that one and the other one, until like Amanda and Adrie, No-One knows WHO had them last, and that to me is wrong.
dogs are considered assets to many breeders. A commodity easily sold and traded off.That was breeders of all breeds!
I also find it bizarre more people were griping about my TRYING TO SAVE MY DOG, than what happened to Amanda and Adrie..Unbelievable. I guess because I'm not a schutzhund person.
And FYI, even though I have 6 female shepherds, I havn't had a litter of shepherd pups since the blues. So in all reality, it's not about the money why I have my dogs. I have them because I love and enjoy them!!!!
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You know, I wasn't going to rehash this whole thing but now you are accusing people of griping because you wanted to save your dog??? REALLY? Nobody griped about you wanting to save your dog. People were angry because you let her suffer even though ACCORDING TO YOU she was terminal and screaming in pain. Then you changed your story a couple times, sort of like what you are doing now. Kitkat these were YOUR words:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/321737.html#322814
"My ole' girl "Lacy" was poisened this week. You have NO IDEA of the Grief I am dealing with. She 'was..IS', my No.1 girl!!!
She is still here with me. I CANNOT Bring myself to put her to sleep. I can't make the death trip, her last trip!!!!WE ARE SUFFERING!!!! Her organs are shutting down, tho she is still eating and drinking. She is crying the blues, begging me to help her. I can't help her. There is no HELP, OTHER than to keep on loving her.
I have medication to TRY to keep her comfortable. She has done nothing, other than to be caught up in a bitter split."
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I don't know if you were just really upset because your old and cherished dog was sick and maybe exagerated her situation, maybe it was not hopeless, but we can only go by what you tell us, we can't read your mind, and from what you told us it sounded like she was suffering horribly. Every single person was upset because you would allow your dog to suffer, but we are the bad guys because what - we cried for your dog instead of feeling sorry for you?
Now you accuse people of supposedly being more upset about about your dog's situation than the Amanda situation you mentioned in your last post, First off, those dogs were dead, it was not about the prolonged agony of those dogs anymore. Secondly, you have no idea how upset people were or what went on behind the scenes.
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KitKat
No where did i say you had couch potato dogs i said people you were not mentioned, Now regarding feeding any animal nothing should EVER have food in front of it 24/7, the reason is the stomach is never empty
Now after feeding high class racing pigeons for 60 years to Win from all distances from 50 miles to over 700 miles you do not get to win against all the UK national wise or against 11 countries in Europe if you have Fat overweight pigeons or thin underfed pigeons they will not stand it
Nor after keeping and feeding Dogs for 60 years without any problems health wise tell me the feeding method is wrong and as for the Owner keeping food from his Dogs and eating as you say himself that extra spoonful or two ;Nice caption by the way' I can tell you that i myself weigh in at 150 lb and there is no extra weight or Fat on my frame
Again regards breeding it is a general thing which many seem to do and is said as that,
If i mean it directly at you i will tell you right out and anyone else as it may be, it makes no difference to me i do not bother what the person in question thinks for they can do nothing about it and if they think they can then get on with it, and we will meet it when it comes
No, i know you were not referring to me but it is the stigma that goes around from one to another and people like yourself believe it, it is not so
Breeders of all breeds of Dogs part with some of there animals they have too if the kennel is a good genuine one they need to keep the Bloodlines fresh you can have too much of one thing otherwise the whole setup will disintegrate that is the same in all livestock breeding
But most make sure there Dogs go to very good homes But as you know they are sometimes passed on again, The Original owner has no say in this and most times is never notified of the fact, and i am not just talking about people who train in the ScH Sport, Show kennels must do the same it is a livelihood for some But it does not mean they do not care for there dogs the same as a one dog owner who's dog is a regular couch potato
Steve1 |
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I apologize for changing the course of the above diatribe, but someone earlier had stated, "the bitework a bit too easy and boring", with regards to schutzhund. Please show me another dog sport in which the dog must bite into a HARD sleeve (full and calm) under the pressure of a DRIVE and STICK HITS. I am not attacking the person above as I hear this type of statement often. I wish people would "master" or "V score" all three phases of a schutzhund routine, at a high level trial, and then talk of how boring, stagnant, and contrived it is. Not so easy to do, is it?
Or better yet, that the routine is not "real life" enough. Good schutzhund trainers prepare their dogs in all sorts of environments and situations, even though they ultimately are preparing for the trial. How many times on a "personal protection" dog website do you see a dog leaping through a "window" prepared to bite an "intruder"? Looks like a cut out piece of drywall in front of a normal schutzhund jump to me. Oooh, but excuse me, that is "real situational" training...
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the "realness" is in how you train, not what venue. Anybody arguing any differently or about what sport is more real than the other really has no idea.
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And Sue,
your point is????
Oh, that's Lacy in my avatar. Would you have not tried to save her???
No words were changed, the events are the same. It is what it was.
i'm not trying to hi-jack this thread. I stated what I don't like about sch. That wass some of people.
Do I need say more WHY I don't care for some of them?
sueincc,
you want to debate my ethics when it comes to my dogs,start another thread, I'll gladly meet you there and answer your questions, ok?! |
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Zdog I agree with you and Bark and Hold 100% regarding schutzhund. It is the same thing with how people complain about the schtuzhund obedience being a pattern, but I and nobody I know train that pattern. We practice it a couple times before a trial, but that's not how we train our dogs.
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kitkat since you are addressing me, I will respond, but this will be the last time on this thread because I think we are straying from the Original Posters topic. Notice I said WE not YOU. I am trying to keep from hijacking threads, just as I am trying to avoid the OT threads.
The REALLY obvious point I was making was the story of your dog has once more changed, and in this new version people were griping about you wanting to save your dog because you are not a schutzhund person, which is exactly what you said and I quote:
'I also find it bizarre more people were griping about my TRYING TO SAVE MY DOG, than what happened to Amanda and Adrie..Unbelievable. I guess because I'm not a schutzhund person."
Nothing could be further from the truth as evidenced by your own thread, which I posted a link to and your own statement regarding what happened to your dog. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/321737.html#322814
You can't just make up shit as you go along and not expect to be called on it.
As for you final question, what would I have done? Easy, if I had a poisoned, terminally ill dog in organ failure, screaming in pain I would have put that dog out of it's misery without a second thought. You know why? Because I would owe it to the dog. Because it wouldn't be about me, it would have been about the dog. I sure as hell wouldn't have come on a message board to garner sympathy for my pain while my poor dog was being tortured.
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| Sue, ¶
You are absolutely correct. Kitkat IS trying revise history. No need to do more than yiou have: provide the link.
Those who rremember know that she cruelly forced her dog to suffer, while, from HER posts, crying pitiously all day, then claimed she had the drugs to PTS, but was refusing to end the dog's suffering (with a controllled substance she claimed her vet gave her) and allowed the dog to die in agony at her feet...while Kitkat sat at her computer in one of her usual attempts to get attention from this board. And, of course, she got our attention. It also led to the outting of her UNLICENSED vet, among other things.
Kitkat, whatever you had done between then and now, whether medication or "hiatus" worked. Go back to it. |
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| Sue, ¶
You are absolutely correct. Kitkat IS trying revise history, and that should not be allowed to pass. No need to do more than you have: provide the link to one of Kitkat's most egregious bids for attention to her and the misery of her life.
Those who remember know that she cruelly forced her dog to suffer, while, from HER posts, crying pitiously all day, then claimed she had the drugs to PTS, but was refusing to end the dog's suffering (with a controllled substance she claimed her vet gave her) and allowed the dog to die in agony at her feet...while Kitkat sat at her computer in one of her usual attempts to get attention from this board and involve us in her miserable existence. And, of course, she got our attention. It also led to the outting of her UNLICENSED vet, among other things.
Kitkat, whatever you had done between then and now, whether medication or "hiatus" worked. Go back to it.
¶Sorry to have become part of the ot from this thread, but Kitkat's offensive blanket statement and martyr-playing attempt to revise history had to be addressed. Let's try to avoid it further, as Happyday was dead on in her assessment of the bids for attention, AND avoid a thread devoted to Kitkat, as well. |
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Bark and Hold writes: "I wish people would "master" or "V score" all three phases of a schutzhund routine, at a high level trial, and then talk of how boring, stagnant, and contrived it is. Not so easy to do, is it?"
EXACTLY! What a great comment.
sueincc writes: "It is the same thing with how people complain about the schtuzhund obedience being a pattern, but I and nobody I know train that pattern. We practice it a couple times before a trial, but that's not how we train our dogs."
More truth. In training you're never doing that pattern over and over again. But in a trial everyone must be judged to the same standard so the pattern is the same for every competitor in that trial. GARD, what other way would you do it in order to judge everyone the same in obedience?
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Bark and hold, probably none of the other dogsports have that type of bitework besides SCH what I know of, if they did it also would be SCH I suppose. Yes, I think it´s a bit boring, a few bites presented the same way waist heigt, if the hard sleeve and drive makes it hard I´m not so sure about, considering the fact there are many different breeds with SCH-titles, while many other dogsports are almost only working GSDs and mals. Of course it´s not easy to V-score, but high points isn´t necessarily an awesome dog is it, but that may be true for many sports. It would be fun thou if SCH was made a bit harder and more practical, so a SCH3 would be a title that isn´t for every dog to obtain. I´m not so sure what benefit there is to emphasis a full and calm grip so much, as long as the dog bites good and hard is it important that it also is calm on the grip? I´m not sure about the rules, but does a dog that wants to fight the helper and shake and growls a bit on the bite get penalized for this compared to a dog that have full and calm grip but just hangs onto the sleeve?
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| Jennie¶,
Some judges do like to see a dog that fights on the sleeve, as opposed to merely "hanging there." A dog can have a calm, full hard grip AND fight on the sleeve--the two are not mutually exclusive.
Judges may penalize for vocalizing on the sleeve, as it is sometimes/often a result of nerves. Some breeds, however, are known for vocalizing and it may have nothing to do with weak nerves. |
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The "full and calm" grip is a testament to the dogs nerves. Typically, growling and shaking is "unsureness". and please do not misunderstand me, I train schutzhund in all different types of environments with different equipment (hidden sleeves, bite suits, etc...) People seem to forget that schutzhund is first and foremost a "breed requisite"... That is why the full calm grip under pressure says so much. I do not imply that a schutzhund trained protection dog is ready for the street, but if he has a good temperament as displayed through the sport, then he will probably make a good street dog with the proper training (Hidden sleeves, guarding an unthreatening subject, etc...) I have seen certified police dogs get run off schutzhund fields with a helper running at them with a stick and hard sleeve... You know why? Sometimes it is the dog, but more often than not, they dog has NEVER seen this picture. Ultimately, I am saying that people should not dismiss the sport because a dog isn't jumping and biting through something that looks like a window, or whatever gimmick some people try to sell you with. The sport is a breed requisite... a test of the dog, its temperament, etc...
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When doing the BARK/HOLD is the dog penalized or disqualified if it goes for the sleeve anytime BEFORE the command is given? If a dog makes contact with Agitator, such as jumping up and making contact with paws, on sleeve is that a disqualification? Have you ever seen this? Just curious as I do not know.
Dawn |
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| It's point deductions for molesting and also for dirty dogs. The dog is never to grip during the hold & bark. The dog is also not commanded at all during this exercize except when he is called out of the blind. The next exercize, when the helper attempts to flee, the dog arrests him, there is no signal/command from the handler to the dog to arrest the helper. |
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Dawn
Yes, the Dog is deducted points if it so much as touches the Sleeve or the helper, It is supposed to Bark strongly consistently without moving around it should stay in one spot, when its handler is called over the Dog should not look round but keep barking and Hold
The signal is given to the handler to recall his dog which must sit at his or her side on the first command from is handler
If the handler has to call the Dog twice it is taken points off again, If it has to be called three times the exercise is terminated the pair are out
Just the same as when the Dog has hold of the sleeve say for instance on the Escape if it is called three times to loose the sleeve and does not it is out
Steve1 |
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And the point to this is that it's a HOLD and bark. The dog is to HOLD the bad guy. So if the bad guy doesn't move the dog may not touch him. It's only when the bad guy moves, i.e. raises his arm and his whip as though to strike the dog and escape, that the dog must, without command, make the decision to HOLD him.
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Ever notice that those that have never titled a dog in schutzhund are the ones that are the most critical of the sport?
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Excellent point, I have noticed that also.
Jim |
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That goes both ways.
I was at a PSA trial and I had to sit and listen to some woman make excuses and talk about how stupid the scenarios were when she failed with her Sch 3 dog. Same goes for the Sch people and PSA people who talk bad about ring.
PS
When i take my personal dogs to outside trainers, the first person to work my dogs other than myself is a Sch trainer
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Hey Gard,
I hope you know I wasn't referring to you.
Jim |
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I think some weaker points could be found in many sports, the negative attitude about the SCH-tracking and to much emphasis on the bite was actually something a mutiple WUSV-participant wrote in an article. I guess one downside with SCH is also it´s popularity, a WUSV or BSP-winner may get a lot of breedings even if there are better dogs to choose from, which could have a negative influence on the working qualities of the breed I suppose.
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This ones for GARD or what I love about Schutzhund:
I love the time Schutzhund affords me to spend with my dogs, I love the partnership I build with my dog for the field, I love the friends I,ve made because of the interaction of Schutzhund training, I love the sences of accomplishment that I have when my dog and I over come a trainng obsticale and succseed, I love the early morning dew on the grass when tracking, I love the steam my dogs breath makes when doing obedience in the early morning. I love the look of drive while my dog search,s blinds and the power and confidence my dog shows in the blind. I love the way a talented helper catch,s my dog on a charge and finish,s in a smooth drive like a bull fighter, I like the challenge of the routine and the time it takes to acheieve.
What I hate about Schutzhund:
Politics,the lowering of the standard to promote the "sport" aspect of Schutzhund. The uninformed who have never even attempted to title a dog but know all about it, The liars,cheeters,conmen,ect... associated with Schutzhund and any dog venue, The my dog is tougher then your dog arguments, The peope who breed only for the "sport" aspect and not for the dog, Those who will criticize but never even think about stepping out on the field, "I,ve sold thousands of dog,s and puppies" comments, Orginizations whose focus is monitary instead of functional, Out of control dogs on the field, Good buddie judges,
I,m sure therers more but I think this will do.Also I love any venue of the dog training what ever it maybe Schutzhund,mondio,ring,hurding,ect... what have you, aslong as those respective people give credit where credit is due and aproach with a open mind...which by example of this board and some members are lacking.
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Jennie,
While there may be increased interest in breeding to a World champion, it is in no manner the same as the "breeding frenzy" to breed to VAs and the Sieger winner. Nothing of the sort. You will not find dozens of bitches shipped to Israel to be bred to him. You won't find dozens being shipped in a year, even if he stands at stud in the USA. The branding franchise simply is not as strong among the working folks. That is not to say that there would no none; of course there will be a few cases. It would be much like the woman last year who advertized having the "first Dasty litter in the US" all over creation...when the actual first litter in the US was already eight years old!! |
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| Man you fuckers will talk about anything won't you ha ha have a nice one. |
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| And my point was just made! |
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I like being with my dogs
What I don't like is when you volunteer to help with events people then think of you as their emotional tampon to whine about crap that no one can do anything about . There are many people who volunteer to put on an event. it is hard work and very often underappreciated. Have some empathy...If you want to make things better get involved. or at the very least thank those who put in hours of their own time to make these things happen so that you can go and enjoy yourself
JMO
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Habanaro:
Your one of the "Why I love Schutzhund" things... |
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Classified: Very nice male pup, VA Vegas/Larus-line
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