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MessagelistBreeding questions?? (18 replies)
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Post ReplyBreeding questions?? by PatriotAmanda on 23 June 2009 - 17:06 |
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| I am planning a breeding and have lots to think about. I am trying to get advice from everyone I can and choose what I want to do. How do you recommend confirmation of pregnancy? Radiograph, ultrasound, palpation,etc? How often should the female be checked during pregnancy? Any precautions to take during the pregnancy? Vaccinations she needs before breeding? Nutritional supplements or deworming during pregnancy? How often should the puppies be checked by a vet if I keep them anywhere from 10-12 weeks? What vaccines should be given and at what age for the puppies? Do you recommend the multi vaccines that I can give myself or should I do the single purpose ones from the vet? Most places by me are anywhere from $25-$45 per vaccine with a medical waste disposal fee. That can get very costly!!! When should I start deworming and how often? What dewormer would anyone recommend? Recommendations on dew claws? Stay or go front and back??Thank you so much in advance everyone! I do appreciate it! | |
Breeding questions?? by nonacona60 on 23 June 2009 - 18:06 |
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| It sounds like this is your first breeding, whelping. litter experience... It can be alot to absorb for the first timer. My suggestion to you is READ, READ, and READ some more. There are many good books which are very informative. The BEST book in my opinion is CANINE REPRODUCTION, A breeder's Guide by Phyllis A. Hoist, MS,DVM. This book answers every question you could possibly ask. Its kind of a breeder's bible. Of course I am sure you will get many different opinions from many breeders. Just be careful to follow the advice of the experience breeders. JMHO! | |
Breeding questions?? by Two Moons on 23 June 2009 - 18:06 |
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| Keep your dog immunized and use preventatives for things like heartworms always. Worm if you think you have a problem but not after shes been bred. You might test for Brucellosis before breeding, some breeders require it before stud service. Feed well, quality food, keep the dog fit. (exercise) I don't believe in a lot of additives, just some simple extras at times, natural not man made. It can be expensive to have puppies and I don't waste money on verifying pregnancy, you can't change it so just wait and see. The vet can be your friend, he can also be a money pit and not know his arse from a hole in the ground. I've experienced both. Keep puppies and whelping area clean, no need for an exam unless you see a problem, I leave new borns alone as much as possible for the first couple of days. Mine get wormed and first shots at six weeks, thats usually the first time they go to the vet. Never let them down on the floor of a vets office, don't let people touch them at the vets office. Keep things simple and relax. Find a vet you think you can trust. P.S. What are you breeding, and why? |
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Breeding questions?? by Ron Hudson on 23 June 2009 - 18:06 |
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| You already have a checklist of sorts. Break down the questions you posed in your post item by item and then set about answering those questions by speaking with other knowledgeable breeders and your veternarian. There is much more involved in the answer to your questions but at least it will give you a running start. |
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Thank you all keep the suggestions coming!! by PatriotAmanda on 23 June 2009 - 20:06 |
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| I am breeding Dutch Shepherds. Stud will be KNPV titled ph1 dog very well known in holland proven producer and my female is arko/pegge knpv line female. It is not for sure yet... still have some health cert. to do but if all is well then it will be set up. It will be my first time and I want to prepare for it the best way I can to provide homes for all the puppies, be able to finance all dogs in case it takes longer for them to find a home, etc. So far I have talked to 3 breeders and 6 different vets. The vets all have their different routes and I do believe it is mostly to get the money they need off of each and every puppy. That is why I am here, I know there are many quality people on here who do well with their own breedings and vaccinations so I am using every resource I have. I have read many internet articles, a couple of books, and watched some videos. I am feeling pretty confident about my abilities right now because I am a veterinary technician and I have been alongside during the birthing process but I have yet to do the actual breeding myself and raise the puppies from birth. If anyone could give their input on what they do and what has been successful for them I would greatly appreciate it! thank you a bunch! Amanda | |
Breeding questions?? by Rik on 24 June 2009 - 05:06 |
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| When I did breedings, more than 10 years ago, I never used anything stronger than pyrantel (sp) on the bitch. I wuold not give any vac to the bitch after breeding. I also started the pups worming at 10 days with pyrantel pamoate (sp again, sorry). It is a very safe wormer and gets round worms, which is the biggest threat to pups. Pesonnally, I would not use the multi vacs. on pups. You can get the single vacs online (Jeffers, KV Vet, etc.). I just don't trust the multi vacs. My pups never left my yard and I did not allow any visitors to them. I would start the vaccines as late as possible. Parvo first, distemper a week later. JMHO, Rik |
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Breeding questions?? by Two Moons on 24 June 2009 - 07:06 |
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| After all the advice and preparation, just remember. The dog could have her pups on her own with no help from anyone, and a healthy dog in a clean environment would not need to see a vet at all. Puppies need basic care and nothing more. Its not rocket science. Nature has already given animals the knowledge and we can only complicate a natural process by interfering. Giving your own shots requires buying in bulk and is not practical for one litter, just use the vet. Don't be to quick to medicate your puppies, there's a time for worming and its not 10 days. Again a clean environment and healthy bitch is the key to that. Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Keep things simple. Moons. |
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Breeding questions?? by EKvonEarnhardt on 24 June 2009 - 09:06 |
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| I would have to agree with Moons on keeping it simple. Too many times we stress out the mother cause we think we know best. That is not the case. Help only when help is needed, like when a puppy or mom is in distress, or no puppies in your cause with a new mom and first time breeder no more then three hours (IMO). Keep fresh water for mom and some food handy if she gets hungry durning delivery (most females will not eat but there are exceptions to every rule). I am a veterinary technician you stated How comfortable are you giving shots and experienced? if not then I would go to the vet at least for the first shot to make sure you feel comfortable giving then. Ask your Vet that you work for if they can help you or atleast stand by you as you give them (some vet will help like that - not many but some), Worming is all done at different times ( to each is thier own) if mom is clean and been worm before breeding then waiting a while -Should not - be a problem but if puppies are bloated in the tummies, not gaining wieght and passing worms then -worm. My next question - is there any breeders (good ones) that can mentor you that are local? maybe at your club or???? It also helps having a second pair of hands specially the first time. OH kids and delivering puppies in my book do not mix. NOW there are exception to the ruls as I know many older teens and preteens that are very helpfull but were taught and raised up around this world. Since this is your first time and your dogs first time I would have to say keep the stress and noise down and don't let the children keep poppin in and out. It will be stressful enough. After everything is all done and calmed down ( a couple days) then let the kids see the puppies. Try to get a babysitter or hubby :) Another thing have handy is food and water for you , something to read or watch, clear your day or night of everything else so you can be with her, pillow and blanket , asprin ( for body aches from sleeping on the floor or in the chair :) Did you ever get her registered? That is a very nice blood line on the mother Arko is a very hard dog who produces him self in his pupps - who did you breed to ? :) I have a Arko granddaughter EK |
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Breeding questions?? by PatriotAmanda on 24 June 2009 - 14:06 |
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| Thank you so much! I have not been able to find any information on how to get these dogs registered with a genuine registry such as the UKC or FCI. Most KNPV blood never gets registered. I am pretty sure most people know that and that is about all I have. She is an excellent bitch and the stud we are using is proven with arko blood. He is also from Mike at loganhaus, the dutchie's name is Carlos another KNPV titled dog. Very hard and serious dog. Will be a very good breeding. Have not breed them yet. I must prepare first. :) It should be happening around December if all goes well. I have been a veterinary technician for about 4 years. I am extremely comfortable giving vaccines. I can give subcutaneous and intravenious fluids. I have put dogs and cats under anestesia for surgery and done minor dental cleanings etc. myself. I am more than confident with my abilities but again worry about the proper times to give everything. Based on what most vets have told me this is what I have come up with.... you can confirm a pregnancy in the simplest way is by palpation because you can not change the outcome anyhow (as mentioned above), mom can have radiographs about a week or 2 before she is due to confirm a puppy count. Make sure mom is health cert., wormed for roundworms, and up to date on vaccines before breeding. No major nutritional supplements maybe one multi vitamin unless otherwise specified during pregnancy. When puppies are due keep cost of medical assistance in mind and have an emergency plan but otherwise let her do her thing and keep them enclosed away from other pets or people or unsterile environments until about 6 weeks when they should first be seen. When I asked what vaccines they would give and the schedule they said it would be the exact same thing that I would be giving so I might as well do them myself. I have no problem buying in bulk. I have had very different advice about the deworming and whether or not to even vaccinate for certain things. Again this breeding has not and will not take place until I am sure of my plan, financially ready, and my bitch has been penhipped. Thank you all again and I really appreciate all of your help. Based on what I have come up with does anyone have any other suggestions for me. Amanda |
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Breeding questions?? by EKvonEarnhardt on 24 June 2009 - 19:06 |
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| Carlos from what I have heard is a very nice male. Should be a good cross. The reason I asked if you got her registered is cause I was watching your thread to see how you did it cause my girl is also from KNPV lines. So there was no disrepect hoping you did not take it that way. The Dutch shepherd is very different from the German in reguards on how things are done. It sounds like you are over stressing (which is better then under stressing LOL) Do you have a website? EK |
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Breeding questions?? by 4pack on 24 June 2009 - 20:06 |
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| I have been researching vacs myself and find most minimalists such as myself agree with Dodd's approach ... http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM Mike will probably want her brucellosis tested before she will be bred. I would worm with Ivermectin about 10 days before breeding. Buy seperate shots. I only give Parvo and Distemper myself. If you can't find the single shots, find the 3-way, not 5 or 7. Small pups don't need all of those other chemicals(hep,flu,resp,corona) in their systems at such a young age. If the new owner wants to board or travel with their dogs, they can get the kennel cough and other shots as needed. My dogs don't get anything but their 3 P/D's 8-16 weeks, rabies I hold off as long as possible(4-6mo) and a booster of P/D at 2yrs old. if you want to confirm pregnancy, your going to do whatever the vet their recomends. I'm with Two Moons and say, let nature do it's thing, vets usually get the count wrong anyway. She and the pups shouldn't need to see the vet unless she needs a C-section. If you work at a vet ask them how many hours they think warrants an emergency between pups or in laybor with no pups emerging. Everyone has a different opinion. Unless the bitch is screaming in pain, I wouldn't freak out too much. I've seen her stop for 4 hrs and then pop another pup out just fine. Just make sure mom is up to date on all her own shots, worming, in good physical condition and on premium food. Maybe suppliment with some soy sprouts, probiotics and omega 3's. If you don't want to give fish pills, I feed a can of mackrel, tuna, sardines or salmon twice a week. Just dump it right ontop of moms regular meal. All my dogs have small front dew claws, very rarely you will find a pup or 2 with 1 or 2 on the back that require removal. Just check all the pups after birth. If anybody has backs, take them in at 2-4 days or snip them off with steril nail clippers yourself at home and smear with... http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&mscssid=2DRB8GX0N5HA9HRUTX5XP0N9GRERAXKC |
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Breeding questions?? by RDH on 24 June 2009 - 21:06 |
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| Ekvonearnhardt--her website is patriot-k9.com I'm reserving a pup from this breeding as well!!! Still looking for the gsd in the mean time. Mike has been giving her alot of help and advice. This breeding should be amazing especially since the bloodlines speaks for itself. Amanda has put alot of time in training her own personal dogs and she does it very well. She is very devoted to her dogs. I'm amazed to see the satisfaction she brings to her clients as a dog trainer and educator. I've been to some training sessions and watch her main stud work and that dog is awesome. Now that she is doing a breeding and researching lines before doing so I feel that she will gain more experience in her profession. |
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Breeding questions?? by PatriotAmanda on 25 June 2009 - 14:06 |
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EK- yes thank you Melissa for giving my website. I have a few great dogs right now. I want to make sure I do things right. I despise the people who don't put the what if's in their heads. Of course lovely mother nature has made it awesome to allow them to bring the gift of life in this world on their own however I want to be sure that I provide all health testing and precautions just in case their is something to go wrong I am fully prepared and don't find myself in a shocked postition. Not to mention if you don't prepare for financial aspects you could easily have someone neglected if in need of special attention and I plan on having a list of 10 people or so for the litter before I do the breeding and go from there. If there are more than I will accept deposits after the birth but I want to make sure I have serious working homes for all puppies long before they are here. As far as the registration goes..... good luck I am not having any!! I really don't care too much because that only limits the stock that other breeders use if they are interested in only registered dogs and it's obvious to all these dogs are outstanding.
In general for anyone else Mike is outstanding! He is a great guy who is giving me all kinds of help! He has not mentioned testing her for Brucellosis because he bred her and knows this will be her first breeding. He also told me I was being too paranoid and it is alot more simple than I make it seem. Anyone have suggestions on when the best time during the cycle is to breed? Recommend progesterone tests? I am sorry everyone thanks again!! I appreciate all the help! All the hard work and research should show in these puppies! |
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Breeding questions?? by TIG on 07 July 2009 - 17:07 |
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| You may want to book mark this site, it has great information. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/sdbvet1.html The articles are written by a breeder vet who is also a reproductive vet that brings some good practical commensense to the table. I particularly recommend reading these to start http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/feeding.html This has a great checklist re breeding also http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/herx.html Re monthly Heartworm medicine in breeding animals http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/umbilical.html Distinguishes between the benign & serious http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/fading.html http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/doppler.html Not re breeding but another excellent article by her http://www.showdogsupersite.com/elbows.html [just a fyi - classic ED only occurs in .5% to 3% in most breeds. By expanding the diagnosis and using DJD and suspected (OFAs term not mine) FCP as class1 ED (which are the nonsymptomatic dogs she is talking about) OFA adds an extra 17 to 19.5% points to the number of dogs labeled as having ED. Keep in mind that class one dogs generally ( if OFA gets it right and often they do not) have "suspected" osteophytes of between 1-3 mm. So a single 1mm undetermined shadow can eliminate a perfectly good dog from the gene pool. Now let me ask you. Using the classic percentages of ED (.005 to .03) how many breeders do you think would be paying OFA and their vets the big bucks for elbow xrays? Hmm I suspect not many but raise it artificially to 20% and waive the specter of our increasingly draconian lemon laws that treat living animals as toasters and there we go a ready made income. |
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Breeding questions?? by TIG on 07 July 2009 - 19:07 |
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This is another great link re raising the litter. http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/superpuppy.htm and http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/critbehav.htm Also I would suggest reading this web page. It has great information about reproduction in the bitch and if you choose to use the progesterone testing what you need to be looking for - many vets seem to be unclear on that part. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=1224&EVetID=242359 Now keep in mind I'm a GSD person and this information primarily relates to GSDs. Dutchies well may be different. |
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Breeding questions?? by TIG on 07 July 2009 - 19:07 |
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| By the way when we began innoculating our dogs for Parvo, there was a lot of ancedotal information that fertility (lower litter size, more stillborns, problems conceving etc) was affected by the parvo vaccine. The vets in this country of course just poo pooed us and told us not to worry. The Guide Dog school in England however took the empirical approach to the problem and found that yes fertility was affected both in stud dog and brood bitch. As a result they changed their vaccination protocol. On their males they do the intial shot and booster and then they merely do yearly titer checks. They found that all but 10% maintained healthy titer levels w/o additional vaccinations. The 10% that need revaccination they supected one of two things - either the original vaccination had not taken for some reason( timing etc) or the possibility that the need for revaccination presented the possiblity that these dogs did not have as strong of an immune system as others and therefore they and their progeny should be watched. With bitches it is a different matter however because the pups depend on maternal antibodies. Like most breeders they were vaccinating their bitches shortly before breeding ( 1 -2 months) in the hopes of having high antibody levels. There were two problems - 1. the fertility problems noted above and 2. extremely high maternal antibody levels can actually work against you because then initial puppy vaccinations do not work. As a result they changed their protocol. Instead of vaccinating the bitch shortly before a litter they changed it to where she is vaccinated several months after a litter (I do not remember the exact amount of time ) because they found that this produced a sufficient amount of maternal antibodies for her next litter the following year w/o running into the problem of having to high of an antibody level that interfered with puppy vaccination. |
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wow thanks a bunch by PatriotAmanda on 08 July 2009 - 14:07 |
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| That is very interesting information that I was unaware of. I have gotten alot of great information and guidance and luckily I have the breeder I got her from helping me through it as well. I have realized I am going way overboard with it all and nature will allow it to happen as it should. I will make sure I am prepared for all possible outcomes though. Thanks again!! | |
Breeding questions?? by yellowrose of Texas on 08 July 2009 - 23:07 |
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| rik: I totally agree with nothing harder than Pyrantel, and the shots I do not give multiple either....I do not give RABIES AT 4 MOS EITHER.. i WORM PUPS WITH Pryantel at 3 wks 4 wks 5 and 6....get a Panacur before going home a three day dosage at 8 weeks old.. |
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Breeding questions?? by yellowrose of Texas on 08 July 2009 - 23:07 |
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| www.revivalanimal.com shots are a Parvo, distemper only..... |
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