|
|
|
|
|
Classified: Ork Werther Muhle
|
RSV2000 (57 replies)
|
|
Hi
Im curious to know if there is any interrest in this new club besides in germany.
I`m from Denmark, and here it`s a bit slow, but i hope it will increase:
Kim |
|
|
|
|
This club is definitely doing Good work and in the right direction. Members are active all over the world.
regards
|
|
|
|
|
This unfortunate fact is the fault of the same SV. With presidents who promoted only on race and color not to GSD in our great diversity. And now that they are taking people who are already tired of this kind of discrimination. The error of all we are left to breed a GSD, regardless of color.
I am not defending Raiser is a shame that this separation is done, but now the SV and all the clubs, deverian begin to understand that race is not a dog with black gold, but rather that there are beautiful colors (Grice and black), and is a large group that we need to continue raising rescue GSD. race is one.
best regards
Christian Molina
|
|
|
|
|
Not just the various coclors buit rediscovering the original philosophy of the breed and rescuing it from the clutches of wreckers of the breed. The work ethics thats what RSV2000 basic philosophy is
cheers
|
|
|
|
|
Until 1970, there were no impulses to rediscover anything. It all began from the moment it started to separate the strands of work and beauty that was and is a wrong concept of how to continue a race. In addition to this, the selection of single-colored dogs with black gold (red), and beauty to work for others. I agree with the idea when Messler said that GSD must be a Gold Center, and reason for this was the Universal Sieger. But this should have a greater impetus to actually quantify and reward those who reach this achievement. Why work when our GSD breed successfully.
regards
Christian |
|
|
|
|
i dont think there is much interest here in the states, outside of those in the "working dog" camp. things are way too free here for anyone to adhere to a standard, unless they take it upon themselves to do such. hopefully the rsv2000 will be a success and it will gain popularity here. also, with very little of the info about it in english, it is hard for a majority of people here to understand what the goals really are and how it will work.
just some of my thoughts from talking to others in the USA.
john |
|
|
|
|
I am very interested in the RSV2000 and what Raiser is doing to help preserve the German Shepherd.
I only hope that it's not too late to reverse the unfortunate direction things have gone.
For me it is somewhat difficult not having translated information and I hope that will come in the near future.
I do want to know more about the RSV2000 plan and goals but it certainly can only improve on the direction things are currently going. When more information is available I do plan to join Raiser's efforts and know of several people here in the USA that will be also.
Deb
Oregon USA
Fee, Brit &
Enja vom Teichblick
Working German Shepherds |
|
|
|
|
why don't you join now we get regular emails which you can always translate into English through software and keep track of events and happenings. You can also participate in events and meetings
cheers
|
|
|
|
|
| When I saw this thread, I thought it was about the RSV virus, LOL! (probably because my background is all kid related, ) |
|
|
|
|
| Luckily i am able to speak german so its no problem for me to read whats on the HP of RSV2000.
I strongly believe its the only way to go if we are to save our breed from becoming a toydog with grave health issues.
That is the reason why i joined the club, and i am trying to gather others in my country with the same ideas and thoughts.
It`s difficult though, because the old SV is banning members who join the new club.
Cheers |
|
|
|
|
| Banning members who join RSV2000??????, seems pretty extreme and insecure to me. Similar to judges action by USCA in reference to Judges judging in WDA events.....we saw how that has played out.....3/4 of all USCA members are now also members of WDA......interesting!! |
|
|
|
|
That is true, I know a lot of people who are members of both.
I am a member of both WDA and USA as well. Don't care about politics or petty crap, all I care about is me and my dog, so I support them all. Let them all sort out their differences themselves, as they seem to be gravitating to joining together, with one score book, all judges from both organizations doing the trials.
I will support RSV as well, if they show up in USA.
|
|
|
|
|
Can you imagine people joining RSV2000 and remaining members of the SV, and wanting to take full advantage of all the benefits the SV offers, including qualification and participation in the BSP.
Choice is a wonderful thing, you make your choice and take the consequences. Facing two ways, or a foot in both camps is apparently not acceptable by the SV.
What is the policy of RSV2000 on their members retaining their SV membership?
What major competitions do the RSV2000 offer their members?
What exactly does RSV2000 offer their members?
Now carefully consider ALL what the SV offers its members.
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, RSV2000 allows membership in multiple clubs. It recognizes titles and ratings earned in any organization which is an FCI member club and honors pedigrees issued by such organizations.
At present RSV2000 offers training, seminars, breed surveys and trials at their Competence Centres and is in the process of planning an international SchH trial.
RSV2000 offers its members access to a database of pedigrees and DNA verification once those databeses have been established. It offers guidance for breeders, handlers, owners. It communicates with the membership via digital newsletters and club information, keeping us informed of internal decisions, news, changes. It conducts member surveys prior to voting thuogh the actual voting is done in person. One member - one vote.
RSV2000 does not disclose its membership list to outsiders. Those people who've lost their SV membership made their RSV2000 membership known to the SV or in public, such as on Web boards where the information is collected by the SV.
|
|
|
|
|
| Aqua: Thank you for your response above. Would it be possible for you to give reasons as to why any RSV2000 members would want to remain members of the SV? |
|
|
|
|
| I really feel stupid, I can manage to muddle through the application going back and forth from babel fish, but I am having trouble entering my date of birth. I know that just about every where EXCEPT the USA it's Day/Month/Year, but that is not working. Can someone please tell me how I am to enter the DOB? |
|
|
|
|
@Videx
Those are personal decisions and I wouldn't presume to speculate on reasons pro or con.
@sueincc
Try this link: www.ellerbach.com/SV-2000/. It is a collection of .pdf files about RSV2000 from back when it still was SV-2000. One of the files is a translation of the membership application pages. Dates are entered in the format dd/mm/yyyy. PLease PM me if you have specific questions about the application process.
|
|
|
|
|
| Thank you Aqua! The translated membership app is exactly what I needed. I will print it out and use it to complete the on line form. I appreciate your offer of assistance and will PM you if I have any further issues or questions. |
|
|
|
|
| I pay my dues/fees to entitle me to the benefits of an organization. Why can members of USCA or WDA also be members of SV.....seems contradictory to me. |
|
|
|
|
I am also member of different clubs SV, RSV2000, Danish kennel Club, and the danish GSD club.
In my oppinion there is no problem here, all the clubs are approved by FCI.
It is because of the old way of doing things by the SV, the trouble occurs. Due to their power monopoly in the GSD world
They try to force others out, hopefully they will not succeed.
It is about time we start to think different in breeding if our race is to survive as a healthy working dog.
Kim |
|
|
|
|
Hi all
I have taken the first steps in the direction of establishing RSV2000 in Denmark. I believe it is no longer possible, to continue in the direction our breed is currently going. Therefore it is time for change, and the only way is imo RSV2000.
They have the visions that are needed to save the GSD as a working dog.
I strongly believe it is neccessary for every working dog enthusiast to step up and work for our breed.
Kim |
|
|
|
|
| That is wonderful Kim, I suppose you will now write to the SV and inform them directly of your decision and your reasons. |
|
|
|
|
| Videx, I am still trying to figure out the rationale for SV allowing members of the WDA and USCA to be members and not RSV2000. If both organizations are for the betterment of the breed,(like WDA or USCA here in the states), what's the problem with the approach of RSV2000. I know members of SV that live in countries that don't even require titles and certs for breed registration and they allow them into SV membership. Not picking on you but you were so quick to defend this policy, I figured you would certainly have a knowledgable reason for this posture that the SV and you have accepted. |
|
|
|
|
Gustav: Does it take extraordinary intelligence to figure out that the RSV2000 is in direct competition with and against the SV, in Germany and throughout the world. Simply read the comment above by Kim, and I quote: "I believe it is no longer possible to continue in the direction our breed is currently going, therefore it is time for change, and the only way is imo RSV2000" Many other similar comments are made by others who have joined RSV2000, YET many of these are retaining their SV membership for SV benefits, and many of these people hide their RSV2000 membership.
I simply deplore it when people join and promote a new club on the basis that the FOUNDING GSD CLUB - SV, in their profound opinion, no longer serves the best interests of their GSD sport, and/or their own interests, and yet still continue their membership of the founding club - SV in order to BENEFIT themselves.
It is akin to having an affair, whilst living comfortably with your wife/husband., and publicly criticising your wife/husband. When this is discovered can the erring partner be surprised, or have a justifiable complaint if and when they are "given the boot"? |
|
|
|
|
Videx: I see no reason why i should do what you suggest. I do not hide my oppinions, and if the SV wants to ban me they can do so.
RSV2000 is not in competition with SV, we are in it for the dogs, and for the improvement of health and workability.
We follow the guidelines of FCI, but we have a slightly different view on how to interpret the standard.
The persons who are set in charge of rating the looks on the dogs are beeing educated by approved VDH (FCI) judges as we speak, so we can in no way be in competition.
The only competition i see is regarding members. More and more are geting tired of the old clubs doing nothing to better our breed. Corruption is widespread, and no one does anything to stop it.
In RSV2000 it is not possible to make fortunes on breeding, as you need to prove the dogs worth for every mating.
Many large breeders keeps dogs in kennels only for breeding, and they do not have the life that imo is right for a GSD.
If you want to breed with RSV2000 this is not possible, so please tell me thats wrong.
Kim |
|
|
|
|
Oh and by the way, i dont`t use The SV for anything. I Show my dogs 1 time in DKK (danish kennelclub) and i dont attend any koerung because i believe them to be fraud and in no way any sign of breeding quality.
I title my dogs with working titles, and from now on through RSV2000.
Kim
P.S Do you think they will refund my membership fee if i get banned ?  |
|
|
|
|
| Kim: You should read my post very carefully, particularly the sentence following where I quote you. (I have now edited it in bold to help you) You will see that I DO NOT state that you retained your SV membership or anything else about you, I could not, simply because I do not know. My points are made, and made very clearly, as an answer to Gustav. |
|
|
|
|
The RSV2000 has a system for the development and betterment of the breed. Most of the UK clubs have no system at all!!!
Mackenzie |
|
|
|
|
Videx: Please do not try to belittle me i replied to this "That is wonderful Kim, I suppose you will now write to the SV and inform them directly of your decision and your reasons."
I do not need your help in understanding his.
|
|
|
|
|
| KIM: YES or NO - would have been sufficient. Your diatribe went much further. |
|
|
|
|
Hmm Videx i believe the only thing we will ever agree on is disagreeing.
Your offensive way of writing to those you disagree with tells alot about you. |
|
|
|
|
| My "direct" way of writing, is to ensure clarity, no offense intended. However much depends on the recipients intellect and sensitivity, and that is not something I can adjust for. |
|
|
|
|
Well done David, I knew that you would rise to that one.
Mackenzie |
|
|
|
|
| Kim,
PLEASE ignore the buzzing insects. They eventually go away.
|
|
|
|
|
SSDD,
as much as I applaud to the RSV for their enthusiam and for founding this "new " club, as much I am disagreeing with them. They did NOT invent the wheel new........ they just have a different aproach. When you carefully look at their agenda, it is pretty much the same as of the SV. Yeah, they will provide their members with a Database.......... ever thought about where they got this information from ?? You guessed right, from the SV !! They formed this Club, no harsh feelings from my side, we do live in a free country, but to pretend that all they are doing is all new and devellopped by them, is just simply ballony. They would not be able to do what they are doing, without the knowledge they aquired, while they were members of the SV.
Lets just wait a couple of years, and see if they are really that much better.
Regards Ulli |
|
|
|
|
| Excellent post Ulli. "simple truth can be very effective, unless ignored" |
|
|
|
|
Hi Ulli
Yes you`re right, only time will tell the difference.
We do not claim to invent the wheel new, no we just have a different approach to the standards set by FCI on how the GSD is supposed to appear both physically and in mentally.
It is true that knowledge aquired is from the time in SV, but that does`nt make the SV flawless. The problems are still there and there is being done nothing to fix them, the almighty Euro (in this case) is to important for them.
I believe that once we are up and running more people will join us because the way we do things is a good way.
Our agenda is the standard of the GSD the difference between us and SV is how we interpret it, and here you find the big difference. We set workability in first place, and not looks as does the SV.
Videx: Truth is a funny thing. If you agree with whats being said, its the truth for you and everyone else is wrong? Or is it so that my truth is is just different to yours?
Kim
P.S i will go and work my dogs for the rest of the day, thats the real reason for having a GSD ayway
|
|
|
|
|
| Kim: you take things so personally - your problem! |
|
|
|
|
Videx: Breeding GSD`s and being in the GSDworld is one very personal thing this is not a business- it`s a lifestyle.
|
|
|
|
|
Videx, " extraordinary intelligence", you don't know me well enough to question my intelligence! As for your answer, still doesn't make sense because the issue isn't about the "SV", its about the "DOGS". What should SV care about how RSV2000 goes about things as long as their stated goal is to maintain the breed in excellence through their approach. This seems like a bullying attitude to me and that in itself gives me insight as to your position of support. As for your purported "Direct Approach" to writing to ensure clarity, this is subject to how it is recieved by others. Although you often project "your" truth as though it is gospel, it is no more than opinion,YOURS! I asked what I thought was a reasonable question, I hear your answer, and though it still smacks of insecurity to me we can agree to drop it .
Ulli, I don't get the impression that anybody is trying to reinvent the wheel, it seems to me more like the new organization wants to go in a direction to restore something to the breed that appears slipping, and the parent organization is feeling and "Acting" threatened. Not saying it is, just saying this is the appearance to this man of under extraordinary intelligence! |
|
|
|
|
Hi Kim, Hi Gustav,
last time I checked, the SV does hold since years a mayor event in Baunatal for the "workingdog" enthusiasts. You are right, maybe the SV should have put more effort into certain things, oh well, I have not yet heared that somebody claimed the SV and their decisions are flawless all the way around. Fact is, and I believe nobody will be able to prove me otherwise, the SV did spend a fortune on research and mantaining the breedbooks. Without this tremendous effort, we would not know as much,as we do at this time. This knowledge is readyly used by many peopel, and also is & will be the foundation of the RSV2000. And yep, I am most certainly with you, some things do stink. When breeding is taking the turn to be only about revenue, it is quite easy to loose focus of important aspects. And yes again, maybe the "show" peopel do put a lot of attaintion into the "looks" of their dogs, neverless, the dogs still have to meet the set standart. As far as I know this very same standart will also have to be obeyed by the RSV2000. Personally, I like to see a good dog working, whether it be a "show" or "workingline", I could not care less. The point is, just because a dog is "grey" does not make it any better in any venue. I have seen much crap in both camps. Annother big point is, just how much workability & drive do we really need in this time & age ? It is always said that the GSD is in declining numbers in the Police Force, well to be honest, if the Police would set up their requirements a little different and pay a adaquate price, there would be more peopel working towards that goal.
Last, but not least, even RSV2000 breeders will have to sell their pups. Not all of these pups will be superior, just as they are not under the SV breeders. That is a fact, that will probably never change. All healthproblems are to be taken serious, but to think that we will be able to eliminate them all, is a nice wish, but wont happen. Also I do believe that no breeder, breeds with the intension of having sick pups. Some things are just there, sad and heartbreaking, but they will not vanish completly. And believe me, when the first male in the RSV2000 is placed and ranked as top notch, he will be used at stud in no time, making a nice chunk of money for his owner. Time will tell if the RSV2000 will be able to eliminate the greed of mankind, to be honest, I believe this to be annother nice wish.
Regards Ulli |
|
|
|
|
| Ulli, another excellent post |
|
|
|
|
Thank you Gustav
Just my words, and i can see no further reason to continue this as it leads nowhere.
Kim |
|
|
|
|
| There are none so blind or deaf to reality as those that want to be. |
|
|
|
|
| Videx, you are very correct! Isn't it amazing that many of the things that Ulli conceded are probably not what they ought to be have been noticed by the blind and the deaf. And I have yet to see where RSV2000 has claimed that all health issues and all grey are great, and money will be eliminated out of the equation, etc. Nobody has advocated these extrme postures, they are only smokescreens put up by the open eyes and hearing people who don't want to take action against what has evolved. RSV's position is quite simple in they want to "try" to restore the GS to a standing it was thirty years ago in the working world. The RSV wants to eliminate the split in the working and show like it was thirty years ago by emphasizing the working first as it should be. Why these actions should be threatening to the open eyed and good of hearing is where my under extraordinary intelligence fails to comprehend. Afterall, it is about the dog and not peoples ego or status. See its difficult for the blind and deaf to relate to ego and staus for PEOPLE within the breed. Read Ulli's post completely and focus as much on the concessions as the part that agrees with you and maybe you can understand us disabled people. Afterall, you can't select from him what agrees with you but ignore the parts that agree with the disabled and still have credibility . Or can you!!!!!--Peace! |
|
|
|
|
HI Gustavs,
first I would like to apologize to you, my english is not as good as I wish it to be, so sometimes my points may not be as clear as I wish them to be. I am very certain, that you will give me a break for that. Thank You.
You are right, this whole s**t started when the split of "working" & "show" took place. These 2 camps drifted apart, not only in the apearance of our dogs, but by their members. Many small groups, many different aproaches were taken. The "show" peopel complaint about the "ugly" apaerence of working line dogs, the working peopel about the lack of drive in the show dogs. And the SV kept on sleeping, for what ever reason, instead of putting this whole ballony to a stop. So this continued, each camp basicly did their own thing, but they were still all under the umbrella of the SV. The seeds for this splitt, were put into the ground a long time ago, but still nobody saw it coming.
With forming the RSV2000, and maybe something good will come from this, it is not, this is MY personal opinion, about this or that change in the aproach of breeding practise, it is more like satisfiying the ego of some. Now, I dont want to kick of a fight, there were just too many things that went wrong between Dr. Raiser and the SV. I am far away from saying it was all Dr. Raisers fault, nor I will ever doubt the expertise of Dr. Raiser, but mistakes were made from both sides. At a certain point, it was plain simply not possible for any side to reason with any argument anymore. I pretty much followed this whole ordeal over the years, and frankly, I was buffeld to see this much ignorance on both sides.
Kim, if I offended you in any way, please accept my apology. That was, at no time, my intension. Actually, I thought it to be a quite good thread, at least it stayed civilized and without profanity and cursing.
Once again, time will tell if the RSV2000 will have the better aproach for it all. As I pointed out in a different thread, I belive you guys to be very dedicated and for that, I bow to you. It takes a lot of work and dedication to get to the point you are at.
For me, I will stay where I am at. I know that, even if it is considered to be puplic knowledge now and of free use to everybody, the SV was the pushing power to invest in healthscreenings, funding research and mantaining breedbooks. I will give them credit for that. After reading a couple of webpages from the RSV2000 I saw no mentioning of those achievements, just about how bad the SV was, in the dealings with certain members. Even for that I have a certain understanding, but to continuosly point out how bad everything is in the SV, and at the same time to use everything that was succesfully develloped by the SV, oh well, each single member has to decide, if he / she can reason with that.
Kim & Gustav - Peace !
Best Regards Ulli
|
|
|
|
|
Hi Ulli
Just like you english is not my first language, but still i understand it allright.
You did`nt offend me in any way, and i hope you will suceed in what ever you are doing.
Viele gruesse Kim |
|
|
|
|
Ulli, you have always been the consumate individual in your posts. I have "great respect" for your opinion because your opinion is always "balanced" and without the drama. Your knowledge is also superior about the breed both now and then. I understand your position and I don't have any problem with your position. Hell, If I lived in Europe I would be a SV member because of my long involvement in the breed and the "tremendous" contribution SV has made to the breed. I equate this to the GSDCA(German Shepherd Dog Club of America) who kept their head in the sand about the working abilities of the breed until the United SCH Club of America got off the ground thirty years ago and started presenting to the public the breed again in a working mentality. Eventually the GSDCA had to form their own WDA(Working Dog Association which is arm of the GSDCA) because too many people had left the GSDCA and the public looked at their organization as place to get Foo-Foo German Shepherds. Now the WDA and the USCA are both seeing the advantages to uniting for the betterment of the German Shepherd. It has taken some 35 years for this to evolve, but I hope to see the unification because both side need to be united for the breed!!
In closing, Ulli never question my respect for your views as I wish you would comment more often to give good perspective and knowledge to issues...Peace! |
|
|
|
|
Kim and other enthusiastic new members of RSV2000,
would you mind answering a question for me, and if need be in German:
Do you think it is ok that leading members of the new organization lie and cheat? What kind of example will that be for aspiring people and GSD fanciers who are still idealistic? What kind of sign will that set for the international community?
Why does that new organization feel the need to keep things so secret? For example: How many members are there? 400?
Do they keep memberships secret, so they can still use the SV clubs to train?
What do you think about people swearing that they are not members of the RSV2000, so they can participate in national events? At the same time, they are introduced as LCC? I wonder if they can still look at themselves in the mirror at night?
Does anybody care to comment on that?
I will: What a shame that a newly founded organization leaves such a bitter taste in people's mouths. And they are supposed to be soooo much better than the bad officials of the old organization!!
Our breed needs a lot of improvement and the way to do it is to vote deadbeat officials out of office, not to water efforts down with a new renegade organization! And the worse thing to do is to squander membership fees with frivolous lawsuits (Dr. Raiser).
Chris |
|
|
|
|
There is nothing secret about the RSV2000 membership list. It is internal club information, just as the membership list of USCA is. In fact, as a member of USCA I am not privileged to receive a full listing of other members in that organization because the information is "private", as I've been told. SV doesn't publish a membership list. Why should RSV2000? If you want to know who the members are, join us.
|
|
|
|
|
| I look forward to reading the answers to ALL of your questions Chris. I am sure you will understand if I do not hold my breath! |
|
|
|
|
Aqua,
please read my post again!!!
I do not care who the members are. I wanted to know how many members there are. That would be an interesting fact for the VDH membership which is probational right now as you know. If you are a member of that organization you will also know the stipulations set to be a full member club which is cause of an outrage right now among some as they have that phobia that the SV had something to do with it (nonsense of course).
I have no problem with that newly founded organization except for the way the leadership justifies some irregularities.
If you don't know what I am talking about, let me be more clear: Gerald Groos! On the RSV2000 homepage and his own (unless he took it down lately), he is named as LCC (head of competence center) but in the last issue of the SV magazine, it was published that Mr. Groos declared in writing that he is not a member of RSV2000. Why did he do that? Because he wanted to compete in the FCI qualifyer. Another lady who is a member of the RSV2000 and has the "balls" to stand up for it, was banned from showing in a regional trial, due to SV bylaws. I do not want to name her here, but I have nothing but admiration for her courage. Something, Mr. Groos did not have! My guess is that he will continue as an SV member until the year is over, as the SV membership accepts cancellations only when the year is over. I am sure he will start his leading position with your organization officially next year. As your organization put in writing regarding this issue: Some things are not easily understood at first glance for the general membership! For me, that sounds very arrogant and creates a two class system right from the beginning. To start an organization on deceipt and secrecy does not speak highly for its leadership! And if they all have the same character as Mr. Groos, I wish you good luck!
David,
I do not expect any answers here. They could not even be given satisfactorily on the German forum. What I clearly read there is that some members and prospective ones are truly disenchanted already and demanded answers. Lots of damage control for RSV2000 to be done!
Chris |
|
|
|
|
Hi Chris,
you actually took my thoughts a little further, I just could not get myself to be this open. Anyways, you made some good points. There is also something else that is rather interesting, some of the RSV breeders still like to have the "nice pink SV" papers on their pups, and work their way around to get them. It is this inconsistency that throws me off, either stick with what you believe in all the way through, or leave it at that. But I guess, it is always a lot easier to pick the cherrys and condem the rest.
Regards Ulli |
|
|
|
|
| What a lovely name "cherry pickers" and so appropriate |
|
|
You must be logged in to reply to posts
Classified: super show line female, SchH1, Kkl1
|
|
|
|
|
Search Website
Login
Messagelist
Post Reply