German Shepherd dog

It sounds like you weren't firm enough with the bitch when she was ready and now she's out.  I've got a bitch here who is so high drive that she flags and runs circles around my male unless you pretty much hogtie her.  She wants to but she has a major case of wiggle butt.  I've also sent bitch owners home because their dog is so much better when they aren't around. 

If in doubt, take her in and have her progesterone tested.

Wow!! That's kind of what I thought. It was strange though because on her last heat she didn't breed until day 17 and 19 and this time she was flagging day 10-13. And she did have to be held but not by the owner by the stud dog owner the owner opted to go home.

I always figured natures way was without human intervention and that something like breeding could be done without our assistance in holding the bitch. Well I guess you live and you learn

Thanks

2. round up some big strong guys, truss her up, muzzle her and force breed her  assuming he's willing to try to tie her under those circumstances, some males will, some won't.

Blitzen,
I find your post rather offensive, disgusting and very immoral breeding practice.  If the bitch doesn't want to get bred for obvious reasons... why on earth would you gather up a bunch of strong guys to physically restrain the bitch by holding her and putting a muzzle on her and then have the stud dog maliciously rape the bitch into breeding?

When people like you who suggest this kind of breeding garbage to someone who's having problems with breeding their bitch wonders why such organization like Peta hates breeders...

Breeders who do this should face karma and should also be forcefully raped themselves to see how it feels to get raped.

Brittany, it's dog breeding, not a debutante at a party.  Some bitches just can't bear to stand still.  They are just fine after they breed the first time with restraint, and often breed willingly the second time.  You don't need any big strong guys, that just Blitzen's dramatic joke.  I've restrained  a wiggly whiney maiden bitch myself, when I had a broken ankle, sitting in a chair because I could not bear to stand.   I didn't have to restrain her the second time, she caught on to the idea and decided she liked it after all. 

Sounds like the bitch has been missed, but sometimes they just get tired of being mauled on by an eager male. 

Veronica

I have had to hold more than my fair share of females.  some have been so dominate that they would never allow a male to mount them.  other's would run in circles till the male wore himself out chasing them.  and still other bitches would bite and fight at the male once he is tied.  I don't care what You think Brittany, I will hold a female to be bred any day rather than have her rip and ear off of a male and break his genitals.  it is not offensive, or disgusting or very immoral breeding practices.  it is a very responsible thing to do. 

most of your breeders who have high dollar studs will not allow a breeding UNLESS someone is holding the bitch.

I have had my back tore up, fingers and knuckles broken, I have been bit, and countless bruises from hoding bitches to be bred. 

Jennifer

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Blitzen,
I find your post rather offensive, disgusting and very immoral breeding practice.
Breeders who do this should face karma and should also be forcefully raped themselves to see how it feels to get raped

I know of several small breed little males who have had to have part of their penis amputated because the bitch fought and rolled and broke the penile bone.  now imagine if something like this happen to VA1 Yasko or VA1 Larus or any other top breeding male.  the owners would be pissed.  just because you did not hold a bitch, you ruined that males entire stud career (these are $20,000us to $300,000 + dogs, and can easily bring in the same $300,000+ in their breeding life times just on their stud fee's and puppy sales.).  It can happen, and does happen frequently.  I for one will continue to hold a female, even if she stands willingly for a male.  it is just safer for all parties involved.  Ed Frawley has a very useful tool called a bitch hitch.  you basically tie this female up in the holding rack and let the male do his thing. 

Jennifer

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A broken penile bone is very painful, may not heal right and can put a great stud off breeding forever. Yes, dogs have bones there and they can be broken. Now you know.

Sam1427, Yanno you maybe right about me being inexperience (I never had a litter) in the breeding world but I do have common sense. If the bitch is known to be a wiggle butt and the stud owners are worried that their dogs penis breaking during the breeding process then why the hell cant they use AI on the bitch? Why use such force and traumatize first time bitches into force breeding? Is it that important for the male to have penetration? Or is this a case of E.G.O? How difficult is it to take both the bitch and the stud dog to a Vet who specializes in canine reproduction to use A.I?
It might cost extra but at least it's humane.

I have several breeding books thats written by well known authors, like Fred Lanting, which by the way I have all of his books. I don't need for you to explain to me the schematics of the birds and the bees in canine reproduction system. Thanks for the offer but I've already know about the tie and how dogs mate.

If I had a great breeding male and someone came to me with their bitch for a breeding and seeing  by the way the bitch reacted (dog aggression) and my instincts tells me that my stud dog will get injured by the bitch... I will offer the bitch owner A.I as an option and if denied I will have the bitch owner take the dog home without breeding as I do not believe in force breeding.

Brittany, I suggest you go back and re-read The Total German Shepherd section on breeding. You'll find out why a tie is important and why some people may choose not to use AI.  Please remain a pet owner and not a breeder.

MI GSD,  I thought that might be the case, now I know. I'm done with this thread.

Brittany,

I commend you for your concern for the bitch's comfort and emotions.  Thank you.  However, it is more upsetting for your sensibilities than it is to the bitch herself. 

After the male ties, he continues to ejaculate fluid for several minutes which helps push the semen along (which was ejaculated first) to it's destined matchup.  Without this aid, there are often fewer pups in an AI, the semen swims the entire distance without natures' planned assistance. 

You are also looking at greater expense...the stud breeding the bitch costs nothing, the vet will charge you an office visit, an exam, for progesterone testing and the AI.  Here, my easy going vet is going to charge me over $140 for one office visit, one AI and one progesterone.  For my vet, the first progesterone test is $65, subsequent ones are $45.  You are now looking forward to over $200-$300 in expenses to spare the bitch a moment of discomfort, which she usually overcomes to stand happily the second time. 

Sometimes, you can miss the breeding doing an AI...vets aren't available every day for progesterone testing and the tests have to come back from the lab...here, that is a two day wait.  I can miss a breeding, waiting to see if the progesterone levels are right...I've actually done that.  The stud is available even on Sunday to "test" the bitch and see if she is ready to stand :-)   I haven't yet had a stud dog give me a dirty look when asked to work on his "day off".

Sometimes, I've had a maiden bitch AI-ed before the progesterone tests have come back because I was sure I had missed the first part of her season, only to discover that her progesterone levels were not high enough, and basically she was "raped" by the vet and I, so to speak, by doing the AI.  The stud dog would not have raped her, he would have sniffed her and said "Nope, not ready."  Now I just listen to my stud dog, he's the expert.

I haven't done frozen semen yet, but I've heard it can be risky.  You need to implant it surgically, which necesitates frequent progesterone testing to be done.  You are looking at a lot of expense.  Well worth it when you are doing a carefully planned breeding meant to enrich your breeding program from a stud dog who resides far away.

Veronica

I'm wondering why this breeding is so important? I don't expect an answer, as breeders seldom have an answer other than money, and they don't want to admit it. "Should be nice pups" isn't really an answer, as there are plenty of "nice" pups out there. Every breeder thinks they have "nice" pups.  In fact there are way too many "nice" pups out there. So if the dogs can't breed naturally, let's force 'em.

I'm with you Brittany. Just because a dog is titled, doesn't mean it has to be bred. That's a bunch of horseshit. Y'all came down on Brittany like a ton of bricks when she said she might breed Zambi someday. So what's so special about this breeding?

Are you guys breeding Golden Retrievers here?  I'm talking about high drive working dogs that don't LIKE to stand still.

My bitch is in no way mean or nasty to my male.  He is 10 now though and I'm not going to throw him out in the pen with her so he can try at it for 3 hours and drop dead of heat exhaustion.  She is the type that always has to have a ball in her mouth and be on the move.  I let him in loose with her when she in heat and if she starts to flag, I then grab the leash and clamp her head between my legs.  I don't have any help with breeding so it's just me and them.  Once they are tied, I tie her head tight into a corner and then tie his leash to the fence.  This way I have control of their rear ends and any pulling the bitch may do. 

After about 5 minutes of this, the bitch is ready to get back on to her ball playing and so I really have to get stern with her.  I don't beat her on the head or kick her in the side but she knows that I mean business and she'd better stand.

And yes this litter means alot to me and I've waited awhile for it.  This thread wasn't about whether his friend's dog is breed worthy or not...just what they might be doing wrong.

Hey Guys,

Thanks so much for all of your post. And Angelique actually both my dog and my friends dog are in season and they grew up together so they come in together. We both have had the same problem with their first litters. Neither of bitches would stand still. They were both restrained. Not harshly. My female just had her chest held so she wouldn't move. But thanks all.

Two words. 

Supervised Breedings.

Muzzle both for safety and two handlers.

One question.

How experienced was the male?  Had he ever been bred or sired a litter before?  Inexperience and overexhuberance could have been an issue but with a supervised breeding at the correct time that shouldn't have been a problem.  Progesterone testing will tell that. 

I agree with MI GSD.  I think the time for breeding was probably missed.

If the stud dog was there days 11/13 and she didn't breed on her last heat until days 17/19 why try on day 11/13 when the bitch may not be ovulating and ready?

I have had females who under no circumstance, would allow a certain male to breed them.  My mother bred Chow Chows when me and my sister were little, we had a female naed Nicky who would not allow any other male but our black boy Max to breed her.  she would fight off another male viciously.  but would stand willingly for Max with no issue's. 

Also, my old SCH3 female Yska, with my "a" litter, she was originally going to be bred to a very nice Fero son named Falk.  well, she would have no part of it, so I took her to a Gucci son and she took to him right off.  I still had to hold her, because once they tied she wanted to jump and run.  both me, my mother and Bill Fleischer held this girl for the breeding.  not because my Yska was stressed, or being aggressive, but because she was so strong and could have easily damaged Baron, them male. She did manage to break my left hand, little fingers knuckle.

I have also seen bitches stand for a nuetered male, but would fight off an intact male.

Jennifer