I am coming over here with this quesiton because I know there are several people on this board who have been through this particular afflication.
My 11+ year old male has this condition. We know it is terminal and the real question we are struggling with is when to put him to sleep.
Right now he is pretty much sleeping 90% of the time, but is following me around the house most of the timel and occassionaly eating [but his appetite is pretty gone - we are giving him whatever the hell he wants to eat - today it was, dry cat food, yesterday it was canned dog food - but he has lost considerable weight - - he is now only 55 lbs, normally he is around 68]. He has flashes of normalcy - e.g., picking on a cat, throwing around a tennis ball, carrying a sock. He does sometimes have labored breathing but not always. Color is still good.
The vet says this is not usually painful. But I don't know. I just don't know when.........he will still trot around the yard when he is not sleeping. He wanted to chase balls yesterday, even if it was just a couple of short throws. SInce I work from home he is getting a LOT of time at my feet and sleeping in the bedroom etc. and the other dogs are getting less attention right now but they seem to be keyed into it that something is going on because they don't try to play with him and just sniff him a lot and are unusually calm around him.
I have let another dog go too far before putting him to sleep and I don't want to make that mistake but I want him to be able to really enjoy what time he has left. The other dogs were easier as they were clearly suffering ............
For those who have been through this ----- how do I know? He will be laying there in one spot for hours and I think - yes I have to take him tommorrow, then he gets up and does something silly and full of life................Part of me says it is a dogs life what does it matter to him if he is PTS tommorrow? The other says let him enjoy what is left, but is he? Why is this so hard? This is my 5th dog who has made it to this part of the journey, so we are not new at dealing with this.
Any suggestions on this from people who have dealt with this kind of illnes where you are not sure whether or not the dog is suffering woul dbe welcomed.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
First of all, I am sorry for your pain and the dilemma. I have faced this horrible situation with a dog of my own and several dogs in my rescue program and one dog who belonged to a friend. I also have a client who has an 11 year old dog with the same type of tumor on his liver. I have a dog here now in boarding who is 18 and who is circling non-stop, loosing weight, cannot see, deaf, and probably has cancer. She cannot eat without my blending her food, something I had to suggest to her owners. And I have to spoon feed her. If she were my dog, I would make the last loving action with her by putting her down. Her owners just cannot let go and in this case, I am certain there is no quality of life, and not at all certain the dog is not in pain.
My feeling is that your dog may sleep mostly simply because he is older. Dogs sleep, if given the opportunity to do so, for 16-18 hours a day. I have a 12 year old male and he seems in good health, but he sleeps much more now than he used to. When you see he cannot get up, really cannot do it, or he completely stops eating, or his breathing is becoming labored, or his gum color is pale, then it may be time. The thing to remember is that with this type of tumor, it may very well rupture suddenly and if it does, he will bleed to death in just two or three minutes perhaps. On the other hand, it may not rupture before it becomes obvious he must be euthanized.
Do as you are doing. Let him eat whatever he will. Perhaps even make him a gruel of kibbles and canned foods. You might also ask the vet about some vitamin B12 shots to help stimulate his appetite.
It is always so hard to know when to say good bye. I suspect you will know, regardless of whatever any of us has to say. Then you go and stay with him and tell him how much you love him and say your good bye. Whenever I have put a dog down I always try to write a letter to them afterwards. I find it helps me grieve, remembering in writing all the great times we had together.
Good luck.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
One of my dogs is dying of cancer as well. I am hoping and praying I will knowwhen the right time arrives She is my first dog so I don't have any experience with "just knowing." for me the factors will all have to add up.... no desire to chase her ball will be a big clue...
My heart is with you on this one. i m sorry I can not offer any more insight.
Darcy
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I lost my male a year ago January 9th to the same cancer at the age of 8 years old. It is in deed very painful. My vet performed surgery and removed the spleen as it was actually bleeding out into the abdominal cavity. I kept him comfortable and let him eat whatever he wanted and he was on the road to recovery, however, work caused me to have to go out of town for several days and the person taking care of him didn't think he needed to have free choice water and when I got home he was having kidney problems. Well we got him through this however, it weakened his system and then the problems resurfaced he had more fluid in the abdomen but didn't seem to be in pain and did a lot of sleeping and was by my side constantly. I stayed home with him and wouldn't leave him unless it was absolutely necessary and not for very long when I did. I was told by the vet that the cancer was in the bloodstream and that it was starting to work on his system again and that it was only a matter of time.
I must say for only having him in my life for the few months I owned him I have to say he melted my heart and I couldn't have loved him more if I had gotten him when he was a puppy.
When his time came I knew it because the breathing was a little more labored, not a lot, so I called the vet to have him come to the house and put him to sleep. The vet never made it in time. When my friend passed it was very peaceful, he simply raised his head looked over at me like he did so many times when he wanted attention, so I went to him and loved on him. Then a couple of minutes later he raised his head again (as if to say goodbye) looked at me and then laid his head back down took a breath and was gone.
I am not saying this will be the same with your guy but this could be how he goes. The lungs do tend to get fluid in them so whereever he is laying at the time that fluid will come out when he passes so be sure to keep some towels handy or give him a nice big blanket to lay on.
My Natie never really got bad until just a couple of hours before it was time.
I hope this helps you with your decision. My vet always tells me you will know when you have to love 'em enough to let 'em go.
Oh one thing which helps to give them some stamina is to make an eggnog with 3 eggs, milk and 1 tblspn of honey or dextrose.
Good luck and God Bless I will keep you in my prayers!
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I can hardly answer your post because I had a much loved dog die from the same condition. Since you seem so sensitive and caring to his state of being, I am sure you will know when it is the time to let go. Bless you and let your boy tell you as he surely will when the time has come.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Nancy and Darcy, I too am sorry for your pain. I would like to thank you for your care and love of your German Shepherd. It sounds like you have very lucky dogs.
What I have often said to friends when asked this question is that there is no right time but also no wrong time. Usually the dog will tell you. Watch the eyes. Sometimes they know we are not yet ready and will hold on for us. So do what you are doing - love for them and care for them. A treat that will help with the energy is to get some chicken livers and even if the dog is not up to eating the liver ( tho usually one small one per meal is ok) you can drain the blood off and give that to them. Also you might get some Essiac. It is a herbal infusion said to fight cancer but I know some old time stock people who have successfully used it as a tonic to help older animals feel better and have a better quality of life.
I do not mean to be insensitive since I know this is a painful time for you both but I know a researcher who is working on hemangio, trying to identify the genetic factors. I do not know if she requires a cheek swab or a blood sample but if you or any other board members would like her contact info please PM or email me. She also is looking for older dogs who do not have hemangio.
Hodie I love your idea of a letter to the dog. I usually write them to the vets and other people important in their life to thank them for their help and in that letter also honor the special qualities of that dog.
Nancy and Darcy, thank you again for your loving care of your German Shepherd Dog. Our hearts will be with you.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I have known 3 people with dogs who have died from this in the past 6 months. (All German Shepherds.) My one friend was walking her dog, and the dog collapsed. She took her to the Emergency Vet, they were prepping the dog to do surgery, and the dog died before they did the surgery. My other friend decided to put thre dog down as soon as she found out. She was advised by her Vet that the dog was old and would not live through the surgery. The third, was the neighbors' dog. The dog had the surgery, came home, was home 24 hours, the dog layed at her feet, and she died. The first dog was 8 years old, the second dog was 12 years old, and the third dog was 10 years old.
This is a tough and painful decision. Look in his eyes, his eyes will tell you.
Dawn
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Thanks for the thoughtful advice. This morning it was pork loin and eggs for breakfast. We will take it one day at a time and I will look into his eyes a lot.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
In April, I found out that my 11 1/2 year old shepherd, Phanny, had an osteo-sarcoma tumor deep in her pelvic bone. It is a very aggressive cancer and I knew that we would not have long. I was given a bottle full of tramadol and fentanyl patches to manage the pain. The narcotics upset the tummy and she lost her appetite. The Pharmacist's assitant told me to buy Gingerforce gelcaps by New Chapter. I gave Phanny one capsure 30 minutes to 1 hour before feeding her. That made all the difference in the world. She happily ate canned good quality cat food.
With all the narcotics, she was having a good time with my puppy and spending a lot of time sleeping in comfort. Like you, I did not want to take away from her any enjoyment of life.
My vet carefully explained to me what the next step would be, when her pelvic bone would start fracturing. No painkiller at any price would be enough to stop that kind of pain.
One evening, she could not get comfortable and was pacing and panting. I had just given her a fresh fentanyl patch a few hours earlier. I gave her 4 tramadols (the maximum) a few hours before she was due for her next dose. After 45 minutes with no improvement, I knew that the next step was happening..
I went with a friend and my puppy Pharaoh to the emergency room where we all huddled together and said our last goodbye.
Talk to your vet and find out what the signs are for your next step and what you can do for keeping her comfortable.
You are in my prayers.
Michele and Pharaoh
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I lost a 9yr old male to heamangio in June 2005, the day I took him to the vets for investigations he had worked a track the same morning, in his case I had no choice but to pts as a lobe of his liver had actualy broken off into the body cavity and he was haemorrhaging, they were no clinical signs that he was unwell untill the night before when he was panting and his stomaching was slightly swollen, But he still wanted to work, and he did not loose his appetite or show other signs of illness.
Pam
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I did not read all of the responses, but this is my experience with it.
Basically what happens alot of times with this nasty cancer, is that the dog can have intermittent bleeds that will seal off. Where the dog will seemingly seem weak then will perk up, ie: the bleed has stopped.
For my GSD mix that had it, he lasted 4 1/2 months after surgery with chemo. I would not do the chemo route as I don't think it did a darn thing other than make me feel like I was trying to help. I was lucky I caught the tumor really early, due to a weird change in behavior. Urinary accidents in the house, where as this dog would rather die than have that happen. He was 9, and my gut told me that it was not a simply UTI. As a tech, I told the vet that I work for that was looking at him, I think he's got a tumor. Stinks being in such tune with your dog sometimes! We took an xray and it was there, but the dr. didn't quite want to call it just yet. We had a vacation planned, so had a tough decision. He was stable, and ended up going with us, with me knowing where every vet clinic was to take him. He had a great trip and we did the surgery upon return. He recovered wonderfully and had the best 4 1/2 months of his life. The one thing that really helped him was herbal tonics from Austrailia.
The week we lost him, that Monday morning he was completely out of it. That Thursday he crashed again again and I just knew that it was it. We all had one last night together with me praying for a miracle or that he would go on his own. It's the worst thing I've ever experienced, basically watching him bleed to death.
They've made such progress on treatments for other cancers in dogs, but not this one. I would for sure do the surgery again to remove the spleen, as there is the chance that it's not hemangiosarcoma. Seen it a bunch of timesAt the clinic that I work at, we mostly see it in Labs and Goldens around 8 to 10 years.
This was 4 years ago and I still remember everything so vividly.
Kathy
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Right now I still feel he is not suffering. He is having a lot of peaceful sleep punctuated by bouts of playfulness. HE is definitely into eating anything that is NOT dog food. For a dog who has dealt with allergies all his life he is having a ball in that regard and he gets whatever he wants [ok, not chocolate, not grapes, etc.]
Eyes are still bright. He is still following me around and is still a bit playful.
I guess since you watched yours blled to death.................... Did it seem distressing or was it a slipping away kind of passage? I guess my concern there was the vet said he would get sleepier and sleepier but I remember seeing dogs in hypovolemic shock when I worked at the vet school and there was a lot of distress and vomiting. The vet has assured me this particular location does not seem to cause pain or distress and he really is not yet showling any signs of pain and I can read him pretty good -- the main thing is just tiredness.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
He will tell YOU most likely, when. Onyx died of the same thing. Never presented any pain, slept a lot, played when he was awake, always had his ball in his mouth even while he slept. He just slipped into hypo-volemic shock one morning when the tumor suddenly began to hemmorage. He woke up just long enough for me to say good-bye and tell him how much I loved him in the vet's office. He died with his little blue bell-ball in his mouth, which he'd played with as a puppy. Its lives in my glove box now.
SS
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I believe Nancy will not mind if I post the following information about research that is being done at the University of Minnesota on Hemangio since our breed seems to one ot the most affected by it. It often seems to strike in the prime of a dog's life from age 7 - 9 and also may have a familial component. I know of an entire litter that died in their 8th year one after the other from Hemangio. The researchers are looking for samples from dogs diagnosed with Hemangio AND from surviving relatives if any are known. Contacts are lewel001@umn.edu and "Jaime Modiano" <modiano@umn.edu> (the chief scientist). Here is their response to me.
Dear Beth,My name is Mitzi Lewellen from the Modiano Lab at the University of Minnesota. Thank you for your willingness to pass on information about our hemangiosarcoma project. We are very sorry to hear there are two more GSDs diagnosed with HSA. May we know their names? We recognize the importance pets play in the lives of their people, and we always want to refer to them with the respect they are due.
If the owners you mentioned are interested in contributing to our research after receiving this difficult diagnosis, we can proceed in a couple of ways, depending upon what course they intend to take.
In the first case, the owners have been given the option of surgery, or they have come to the point where euthanasia is the kindest option. If they or their vets contact us a short time in advance, we can send sample collection kits to their vets with instructions for collecting and shipping what we need by way of blood and a tumor sample. Shipping charges will be paid by our lab.
In the second case, if surgery is not an option, we can send instructions to the vet for collecting and shipping a blood sample at the owners'/dogs' convenience. For blood samples only, we would generally not send a kit, but we could certainly pay for shipping.
In any case, we would ask the owners and their vets to complete our information form on their dog. Also, we would ask for pedigree information,if it exists; we want to discover why this disease is more common in some breeds of dogs than others, making pedigree information very useful.
Please pass on any and all information I have given you here to anyone who is interested, and by all means direct your contacts to our web site: www.modianolab.org. And, please, let the owners themselves know they should feel free to phone or e-mail me here at the lab if they have any questions or would like to participate in our program.
Thank you again for your interest and your willingness to assist us in our research.
Regards,
Mitzi
Mitzi Lewellen
Modiano Lab
Phone: 612-626-6890
Fax: 612-626-4915
E-mail: lewel001@umn.edu
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
I am sorry to hear about your male. He will definitely tell you when he's is ready.
I woke up one morning in April of 2002 to find my AJ, lying on the floor, which was unusual because he usually hogged the bed. I was too late to surgery, the spleen had already burst. I thought that since I had gotten him through Degenerative Myolopothy with acupuncture, diet and exercise, that I could get him through this. Boy, was I wrong, I had no idea that it would spread so quickly. He had tumors in his ears that bled profusely, my vet gave some little red pills, an herb they used in Viet Nam to stop bleeding, to get him through his worst times. It helped a lot. I will never forget that Memorial Day weekend, my husband was recuperating from knee surgery, we camped out in our downstairs library for 4 days. Looked through photo albums, eating popcorn...spent great quality time with AJ. The morning my husband had to go back to work, we couldn't get AJ up to go outside. I called my vet to come to my house, I wasn't going to take him to the clinic. I took him one time and they told me to leave him, he was dying. I told them no way, he's going to die at home and that was right before Memorial Day weekend. AJ was also 135 pounds, abnormally large and he didn't have the best nerves or health, but we loved him dearly. He is the reason I started on the journey of finding a well bred dog and falling in love with schutzhund.
Another sad note, my best friend in our club had to put her male down in February. He died 2 weeks shy of his 3rd birthday from Hemangiosarcoma. I don't know why this happens, it's horrible.
Enjoy every minute you can. A very smart vet told me that the best thing you can do for the dog, is not to let him know your upset. It's the hardest thing to do, I tried like hell not to show him I was upset . I don't think I did a job good because he fought like hell not to leave me.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Gosh, so many sad stories...... I have a friend, we used to work together at the clinic.. her dog was diagnosed. I Don't recall his age but he wasn't that old..... they were playing one day out in the yard and he just dropped.. and was gone..pretty cool way to go if you ask me..
When my Kaela starting acting ill, we did an ultrasound that looked pretty funky.. compared it to the textbook photo of a splenic hemangio and so I thought, ok well we just have us some fun and that's pretty much what we did... except when things got busy... she finally started having some real difficulty keeping food down and was behavior wise very different.. ripping up crates, breaking doors, etc..... just not like her...... the vomiting was so suspect
As it turns out, she had pancreatic cancer and I had to put her to sleep...... the xray showed a mass in her entire left side.. no wonder she had changed...... wished I had listened to what she was trying to say just a tad more (huge understatement )..... I took a photo of her the day she left and you would never know there had been anything wrong with her. She is up there now on the Memorial Wall with pictures of 5 others and a sign that says "Heaven's the place where all the dogs you've ever loved come to greet you" and I know she forgave me for not listening...
A month later the 10 1/2 year old retired super agility dog was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma .. and the hits just keep on coming as they say..... it has been 6 months since his diagnosis when he was given 8 - 12 weeks.. no aggressive treament.. some pred, acupuncture, chinese herbs and whatever he wants to eat!! and huge playtimes.. his spondylosis will get him first ......
Sorry, you had asked about when its time and you got some pretty good responses.. we always used to tell people... when they hurt, when they can't eat , when they aren't happy or seem like they aren't there....... I have done this so much, I actually made a promise that if we need to make a decision, we will do it before they feel so crappy they want to die.. i have put a couple to sleep on days when they actually were feeling ok, but after a bad spell... it's very personal and you have to do what is right. for you and your dog. .. some people can't, I can and have helped others.... Will be thinking of all the lucky dogs whose owners make the decisions they have to make even when they are so so hard
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Well - today is the day - we have an appt at 3:40 - he has refused the last food he would eat - hot dogs - and cannot lie on his side comfortably - in order to breathe he has to lay on his chest. Many of the breaths are very shallow. But he is not gasping for breath and I don't want it to get to that.
Last night around 4am he got up and shoved his face in mine and just looked right through me. I guess I knew then. None of this makes it any easier.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
So sorry, Nancy. When a dog can only rest by lying on it sternum, it is not a good sign and you have made the right decision. You will be in my thoughts today.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
You are making the right decision for him. Our thoughts are with you and your family at this time. It is never easy to make this decision. It is never easy to lose a beloved pet.
Do you have a copy of:
The Last Will and Testament of an Extremely Distinguished Dog by Eugene O'Neill?
I have found this wonderful book a great comfort in times of loss. If you do not have it. Let me know and I will type it out word for word. It is all I can think of to offer you in this sad time.
Jenn
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Thanks for the link - it did give me comfort in supporting we did the right thing at hte right time. I am going to print that one to share with others.
We also got the blood sample for the hemangiosarcoma study and the vet is sending it off. I was able to find his pedigree and all that stuff they wanted.
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
Nancy, I'm so sorry to hear your time with him was so short. My heart goes out to you. I do want to thank you for taking such good care of one of our beloved GSDs and also thank you for caring enough that his last gift and yours is to be of service to the breed as a whole by participating in the research. It takes a special person to think of others in their grief.
God bless. Beth
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
My condolences on the loss of your companion. From what you have described, I'm sure it was the right decision. I know it was hard to let go, but watching him suffer would have been worse.
We've lost 2 dogs to this nasty cancer. My vet's description was rogue blood vessels that form in various parts of the body. They have weak walls and tend to rupture easily. The most common area to be attacked seems to be the spleen. Sometimes surgery can help, but often does not. Chemo seems to have little or no beneficial effect.
The first one we lost seemed to tire easily, but we could not determine why. A couple months later, we thought she had some sort of infection as she was running a fever. Antibiotics seemed to help for a few days, but then one morning she seemed to be worse. She died before we could get her to the vet. In her case, the blood vessels formed around her heart, so when they ruptured, her heart had difficulty functioning, and it finally stopped. This did not show up on x-rays. She was 11 1/2.
We lost a 2nd female 1 month before she would have been 14 years old. One night she seemed weak and listless. We took her to the vet and found she had very low blood pressure. We spent the night with her on IV fluids and she was better the next day. Ten days later, it happened again, with the same result. Another exam (different vet) found a small benign tumor in her shoulder that was removed, and we thought we had found the source of the hemorraging. She was good for another two weeks, and recovering, but then one night started having pain spasms. We knew then that something else was seriously wrong and said goodbye to her the next day. The vet's examination revealed non-localized hemangiosarcoma throughout her abodmen.
Nancy, I'm sure words can't express the sadness you feel. I hope that soon you remember only the joy he brought you. You have our sympathy.
Dash2
Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go
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