German Shepherd dog

Excessive shaking is more often a learned (or allowed) behavior during protection work, meaning that the dog has  not been taught to hold the "prey" calmly. It can also appear with dumbbells in dogs who are improperly trained in that task.

Calming should begin early in puppyhood. Most dogs, given a rabbit they had just caught, would probably shake it to break the neck.

i much prefer it and encourage it but i also use a separate command for a steady hold i have found this a good exercise in control.

The whole issue of a dog shaking his head is a dificult one. You may see a dog with a shallow bite and shaking, that I believe is a nerve problem. Now the kind of dog I prefer is one that has a crushing full hard bite and is shaking his head because he is bringing the fight to the man and he is trying to hurt you. Now when a dog wins the sleeve he will probably shake it some but in his training for PPD or PSD he should be braught off the sleeve and onto the man. I dont want a dog that wins the bad guys coat and stays their and shakes it as the guy runs away.....

The reason a dogs shakes it's head is to kill the prey by breaking its neck. It is just a kill instinct. This is something I want in my dogs.

No way... Shaking the catch is a kill instinct. I have studied and read alot over the years and observed in many breeds of dogs especially terriors.

Where did you get the info on the three mentioned?

Not trying to fight but think you are wrong but always willing to be open to different thoughts.

I have observed dogs with lower or medium drives that have had work tend to shake less but the higher prey drive tend to be the ones that shake more. Not a 100% statement but never seen many lower drive dogs shake the head to kill.

I also like the to see the more intense drives.

here I want to bring in the element of mouthiness and poor grip due to head shaking. Is this frequently observed that dogs who shake their head to kill the sleeve, have poor grips and it can lead to mouthiness

if some real life helpers can comment....

cheers

I agree with Held.  It is fight drive.  Sad thing, is that we are seeing it less and less in the GSD because so many want the calm full grip that wins you points.    Most of the Malinois I have seen or worked have had excellent fight drive.  \

With the nerve issue, ya gotta know what you're looking at.  Is the dog displaying fight drive or is it getting chewy and hectic on the sleeve?  Is the dog displying fight drive or is he trying to get as far away from the helper as possible? 

My dog just started up with this and I wanted to revive the thread for further discussion. I know it's the prey aggression has kicked in, he's maturing still and becoming more serious/less game. My boy has always been a steady solid carrier of the prize and super calm on the grip. I'm having fun watching him rip the jacket off the decoys as they try and slip.

what exactly is "Fight drive of a different kind"  elaborate. if anyone has to say that there are multiple "types" of fight drives?

I thought there was one fight drive which was a combination of constituent drives.

My girl is 18 months young and just started on the sleeve.  The helper said she was over the top and had too much fight, that she needed to focus on biting the sleeve correctly.  I thought she looked Great, however I'm not experienced in Schutzhund so I'm glad to hear others think it's good too.  She has only worked the sleeve about 5 or 6 times so I think she needs to learn how to hit the sleeve to get a better bite right off the bat.  I have noticed sometimes she repositions to get a better bite.  But I like the fight she brings to the sleeve.  My thought is she should try and tear him a new one.  If I'm in danger, I don't want her just to hang on while someone beats on her, I want her to kill him or at least try.  Maybe I'm over the top too. :o)  Because in real life attack, if someone came after us, I'd find something to beat him with and help her out.    

It's like those scarry movies you watched as a kid; the bad guy or monster keeps getting up and coming back after you.  I don't believe in stopping to look over your shoulder, to stop shooting until you've emptied your clip, etc.  I believe in engaging until the danger is eliminated and/or down for the count and NOT going to get back up.  Of course for most of us, this is a sport/game for the dogs and the dogs most likely know the difference.  In a real life fight, if their owners life was endanger, I believe and hope they can tell the difference and act accordingly.  But I like the extra fight in them because to me it shows their heart and they have the grit to "Get er Done". :o)

Teri       

Thank you Dutch Boy.  I know she is still young & has much to learn, I'll try her with another helper and see what they say.  This helper likes her a lot but has his own idea's about the sleeve.  She is very obedient, tries very hard to please and is a fast learner.  She isn't crazy at all, just full of energy and drive.  That is only one of the many things I love about her.  My 22 week old pup, half sister of my older female worked on the puppy tugs Sat. for the first time and did very well.  The helper really liked her too and told the breeder she should have kept her. :o)  I was very proud of my little girls and told the breeder she wouldn't be getting them back. :o)

Teri    

I live in Florida (Orlando) area do you have any suggestions for helpers that teach/work the dog in prey & civil?

Thank you

Teri   

"Teri, I've found that most helpers today are all into "THE GAME" when it comes to bite work. I'm not into that. Most of these style helpers can't train a more agressive dog and will tell you that it's not a good candidate for schutzhund.

 I don't think making it a "game" is  a bad thing. You have to at least get the dogs feet wet (correct technique) full grips, targeting correctly, carries for the unload. Most "sport" people don't want or need a civil dog and starting out civil with pups or young dogs is going to ruin more dogs than you can shake a stick at.

It's not that the dogs not a good prospect it's just they don't know how to train these types of dogs. Asko von der Lutter was this type of dog and we all know what he accomplished in the world of Schutzhund. Try and find a helper that will train both the prey and civil sides of your dog. One that can keep both sides in balance. These are hard to find these days but a few of them are out there.

 I highly doubt Asko was brought into civil or even prey aggression right off the bat. Ah ha, you said it "balance is key". I agree 100%. My dog has been worked in prey since 9 weeks old, only seeing small doses of civil stuff from our decoys. Now at 26 months he's telling us it's on, he's not gaming anymore. Can't tell you how relieved I was to see it but a bit scared on the other hand. It's nice to know it's there and always was, all I have to do is tap into it.  It may only (seem) as if people train only in prey, because it's what you start out with and what brings less pressure, fuller grips and what you should be working in the most.

Our helper trains this way. The dogs in our club all do very well in bite work. Most going "V" in trials. The other nice thing is that they will also bite when there is no sleeve. Which to me shows the best of both worlds.  You'd be supprised how many people, who have their own training groups, will come to him to work their dogs saying that they need help with barking or to solve confidence issues. This is because they are all preyed out and just want the sleeve."

Your trainer sounds allot like mine.

If you are talking about the Fero then u have seen his video and if you are some what knowldgable you would call that a display of fight drive.some dogs do it especialy dogs with fight drive always give little extra.if you look the Fero son Troll does it and timmy in their videos.this is not the same as dog shaking the sleeve on the ground.have a nice one.

Quote: "it is called fight drive.if you want to see a good example watch Fero Zu,or his Son Troll nachbershaft,or his brother timmy.this is immpresive and has nothing to do with bad nervs or anthing like that high fight drive dogs tend to show that kind of power in the fight.have a nice one."

Very correct, it is genetic (also what another poster stated). My 8 months old pup has both of these dogs in his pedigree and he does it, too, "naturally", so it's unmistakeably genetic. The other tendency of these lines, once slipped the sleeve, they walk the circle a little bit, but actualy REALLY like to lay down (with sleeve in the mouth) after a few circles and "enjoy the spoils of a good fight. Also genetic (I strongly believe, but not 100% sure), with very confident dog with plenty of fight.

My pup does it - been doing it ever since I got him at 8 weeks, his father does it (with gusto!), grandfather does it, great grandfather (Troll) did it, have no information about Fero, great great grandfather, but it wouldn't be surprised if he did it too.

not only do i like it, i encourage it with my pups.  when they grap the rag and shake their head i praise and tell them,,good boy, kill it.     i have never had this become a problem during bite work with over a dozen dogs that i have raised or help train at club.  

i would have to agree that most people have heard in training to calm the dog,  hold the sleeve calm.  the problem is most people take this (as they take most things they hear) to the exteme level.   yes i want my dog to have a full grip, but if he wants to try and take the helpers arm off in the process, all the better.   gotta love a dog with good fight drive.

john

and jumping from trainer to trainer in order to find the "best" often times ends up with a confused dog with no clarity that once had lots of promise and ends up looking like shit.

if you don't think you have a capable helper, which we have no way of knowing if you do or not.  But if your breeder recommends him and you've watched his training, young dogs and older dogs and dogs he's brought along and he's done well, you might do well just to stay put and learn some things.

There is nothing wrong with trying to have the best trainer, but in your quest, leave your dog at home and go watch.  Look at the dogs they've trained, look at the dogs their training and talk to the people they train with.  It is important, especially with a young dog, or a dog learning the basics.  that is the foundation and it needs to be consistent. 

At some point you need to find a helper you trust to do the best for you and your dog.  Trained dogs can work on any helper, it doesnt' matter, but until you find that trainer you trust, do your dog a favor and leave him at home or in the car. 

4PACK - I would agree that as a pup Asko probably wasn't brought into civil. No intelligent person jumps right in a 4 or 5 month old pups rear like he was a grown dog. A good helper will steadily increase the amount of civil as the young dog shows it's ready for it.

Some dogs just naturally have that agressive side to them from the start. The ones that ahow they'll bite your arm, sleeve or not. It's the weak helper that says that the dog is too over the top and can't be trained. The good helper will know what he's looking at and know how to train the dog.

TERRI- I agree with ZDOG.  Go and look at other clubs and trainers, without your pup. Watch him training the clubs dogs. WATCH ALL THE DOGS. You want to train with the club where the VAST MAJORITY of the dogs look good in the bite work. Every club has that 1 or 2 dogs that look great. Even the clubs with poor helpers. The reason is that those same 1 or 2 dogs would look good anywhere. They have that natural ability. When you find a club where all the dogs look good it's due to a good helper knowing what he has to do to bring the best out of each dog.

Eisen Faust,

Great posts.