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Classified: ***SUPERB FEMALE FOR SALE****
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Breeding Show/Workinglines Together (27 replies)
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This question has probably been asked before, but are there breeders out there that breeding Show/Working Lines to get the best of both worlds? If so, are you happy with the results? Have you seen improvements in your pups with the combination?
Dawn |
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we were thrilled with our last litter (so thrilled we kept 2 back) the working looks seem to show through as far as conformation is concerned but out of a litter of 9 we produced 5 with fairly good conformation and all had mid to high drive
some went to pet homes no complaints.
one is in agility and obedience (super boy)
one is just starting in schutzhund doing well
one is a pp dog and is great
i personally love true working lines but the pups we produced were great.
i am not saying that this would work every time but look at whether or not the sire and dam compliment each other and i hope it works for you as well as i has worked for us
all the best Tracie |
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I'm sure there will be many negative answers here but I am being positive as I have seen quite a lot of working/show mixes that are easily capable of doing both disciplines but most owners choose one or the other.
I have decided to mix the lines myself when the time is right.
I have a daughter of 'Zasko Von Santamar' a show import ( I do not know him in person yet but intend to soon ) she is out of a half working bred bitch that I bought from a novice . I will mate my bitch to a full working bred dog ( when I find one I like ) as I have seen quite a lot of youngsters about at various clubs that are coming on very well in the training of Obedience, Agility & Schutzhund which are the progeny of working lines mixed in with the Zasko line. The ones I have seen have had improved conformation and considering that most have been with novice/pet owners they work very well and are very sensible yet have loads of drive and brains so I have often thought how well they could work with more experienced handlers.
So I'm in favour of the working/show mix !.
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yep mine have zasko on the fathers side |
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TIGERMOUSE . From what you said earlier its even more encouraging for me now !, its good to hear some nice positive things on here for a change !.
Good luck with your pups and I hope they excel in all you do with them. |
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trueview- thank you
please let us know how you get on.
the pups are one year old now they are on the right of my profile pic unfortunately wicket our boy has developed a plush coat but is still handsome and most of all healthy.(mom issecond from the left)
all the best tracie |
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Do a search. This topic has been done many times. |
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Air,
I looked at the message board, and the topics were on Show/ vs Working. I did not see any topics on breeders breeding, and blending the two lines. I am happy to see that some are doing this the good results.
Dawn |
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I have a Working x Showline cross and he's an AMAZING dog. He is a certified SAR dog in Wilderness, Disaster, Building Live Subject as well as Land, Water, Building and Disaster HRD. He resembles the Workingline structure and color, but he's incredibly well balanced and an excellent home companion as well. He is truely the best of both worlds...just not the "prettiest dog" ever..lol. I"ve bred him to my Workingline female twice and it was a really nice match with dogs that could work but not "nuts". =)
I'm planning to breed my Workingline female to a nice Showline stud in the future to try it for myself. =) |
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Count me in as a positive vote on this topic, for over 5+ years now combining our Czech stud with West German showline dams. We have a client base that is not interested in conformation shows, or sport competition. We are a rural location and puppies go to farmers and families who want a pet who is also a guardian and a deterrent to would be predators animal & otherwise. We have bred 100% worklines but the energy level seemed much higher and so I combine those strong nerves with a little more laid back personality so far with excellent feedback and repeat requests. |
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I have two show/working line six year old females and both are extraordinary dogs. I have crossed them with show males and working males, both with good results. When I cross them with working lines, I get higher drives, when crossed with show lines (with good drives for show lines of course) I get very nice looking pups that can also work. I am very pleased with the crosses and think that 3/4 show 1/4 working line pups are top notch, from what I've had so far. Beautiful with an extra bit of "punch" in the work that some show lines lack. I have a litter DDR/West Geman litter due any day now and am very excited! |
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The show/working combo does seem to have it's positive outcomes.
I have one, too-a female. Father is blk/red show line Vice Sieger VK3, mother is solid black V4, Sch, FH AD IP titled WGR working/DDR/Czech mix. My girl at 7mos old is solid boned, beautiful to watch move, afraid of nothing, clear headed, and a terror to her toys(lol)-very nice ball drive. She's a wiggle-butt due to her puppy nature so it's hard to get a nice clear pic of her 'in natural stance', but I think my pic still shows her overall solidness, decent pigment and conformation potential. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/532420.html.
People who can think a little OUTSIDE the full working or full show 'box' might just see that there ARE benefits to having some show/working combo GSDs. Granted, not all show/working combos will produce the best of both worlds-everything genetic is up to 'fate' so to speak. But from what I see, I have NO problem in show/working combo and find my girl quite appealing and pleasant. |
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I know I've talked to Dawn about this topic many times....
I love the look of the mix but realiastically...where will the pups go? A how home won't take it as the movement so dearly wanted is compromised (as they think) and a working dog person won't touch one with a 10 foot pole!!!
After speaking to MANY Germany breeders, not even they will do this unless there is a TRUE reason to do so. You have to have a goal going into this. So many of our showlines could be improved with some working blood and the working dogs could get a dose of good looks structure wise...but any breeding should have a purpose. I personally don't see a purpose with this for many breeders. Some have done wonderfully...Carlos and Robin (Huerta Hof) have a beautiful female from the cross. But I don't see them doing this regularly....or anyone for that matter.
Just my opinion on the topic....and I would love to see what progeny are coming out of these breedings. Any breeder who has done this...I'd love to know why you did it (your goal) and did you achieve it? |
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neohaus-as i posted above my pups went into active pet homes and working homes and all are fab i have had no complaints and have also had requests to repeat the mating i myself am a working line lover and would never touch t true showline dog but saying that we kept two
my goal was simple to improve the look but not sacrifice intelegence also i wanted an outcross as i intend to breed the female in the future (if her hips etc are good) to me a stupid dog is a dangerous one also hyper intelegence is equaly dangerous imo. i could guarentee you would love my boy as he has the correct look temperament and intelegence
all the best tracie |
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Why should anyone care what some German Breeders that have benn spoken to would do with a ten foot pole.? I certainly dont, would they also say only such and such dog is the best and everyone else is squat... Like many stud owners do because they are only interested in marketing their own pockets? hmmm or Perhaps they are insecure in knowing what their stock is capable of producing. Its obvious many of the old timers are no longer here... as they did this without problem and good results.. (germans) and many of our USA top 10 breeders have over the years done this succesfully with good production records. Perhaps many of these breeders have different goals. breeding is not one generation by any means. If one chooses to stick were they feel confident so be it...that is ones choice.
With any breeding partners there are many many things to consider. It isnt work/vs show for a longtime goal. as far as I am concerned. The family lines and production on both sides should be evaluated and contemplated then it is tried and tested by going forward. People may be surprised by being more open minded and also try all of us to be without having blinders =kennel blindness syndrome. There is crap and good on many sides of a pond... you may have to go thru some muck to get to good. (not on purpose of course). :)
Debi
www.sherman-ranch.com
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As far as goals go... most of it is obvious... improve work in show and improve conformation in working lines. It is not as simple as just breeding "A" show line to "A" working line. Must research and consideration of backgrounds needs to be done. this particular breeding above actually had a common relative in the background ,Sagus Busecker Slosse. Maybe that is one of the reasons why it has been so successful. The other thing I've found is that consistancy in conformation in the litter of most crosses seems to be low sometimes. Since the gene pool is wide open it sometimes gives you a few differenty "types". I just repeated this breeding above and came up with better consistancy than the first litter. But the benefits far out weigh the draw backs to me anyway....
debby
http://castlebrookshepherds.net |
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A few weeks ago I made a post looking for V rated workingline studs available in the US. I'm glad to see this discussion open up.
I think the problem with many crosses and the lack of consistency is many of the breeders attempting this are breeding either mediocre examples of both lines or are breeding extremes. I have for a long time been interested in incorporating a V rated, calm, clear headed, proven working line dog into my breeding program. The idea would be to breed a resulting dog to another showline dog, then another showline dog, every 3-4 generations in hopes of keeping the genetics more open and maintaining working ability. However, this is not a an experiment I take lightly and am not prepared to do so until I have learned a lot more about working lines themselves and find just the right dog. I wonder how many generations it would take until even an experienced eye could not tell a working line dog had been added in.
My first GSD was 3/4 showlines, 1/4 workinglines. He was a flashy black and red dog with very solid nerves and great drive. However, his litter was very inconsistent and after seeing some of them at maturity I was shocked they were even littermates. His structure was SG maximum in my opinion. He also tragically passed away at 2. But he is a perfect example of why I am interested in crossing really great dogs, not just "okay" ones. I have no interest in crossing lines just for the heck of it. I'm sure it will take me years before I build up the nerve to try.
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Margrit of Von Arlett Kennels bred one of her top showlines females to a workingline stud. She kept a puppy back from the litter and she's looking very promising. I believe her name is Lotta. She has pictures and videos of the little female on her site. Someone brought this to my attention when I've brought this subject up myself. I've talked to other top breeders in Germany and in the Netherlands who have also done this cross and had successful results. But yes, you definately need to have a goal and look at each dog's charateristics and what they can contribute to each other.
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' DIC '. Debby I'm pleased to see you are having very good success with your working/showing lines mix. Looked at your great site which shows your improvements up to date well.
As with most things its usually the U.S.A. that leads the way !. |
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I just wanted to say that Mr. Nyman (Kennel Triumph), bred Show/ Workinglines from time to time, and with all of his hard work of researching lines, he finally got HIS DOG.... Triumph's Gucci, a Universal Sieger. This dog WORKED!!
I am very glad that there are people out there that are doing this from time to time. New blood on both sides has to be incorporated, or the breed is in trouble. PERIOD!
Dawn Bonome
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DAWN. I am fully aware of ' Bo Nyman's ' input in the breed . I have been doing some research and find that there are a few ( not many ) breeders in the U.K. that have been mixing the show/working lines for some years so it must be working for them also.
I agree with you that the future of the breed without this mix does spell 'TROUBLE' !. |
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Katio, Tigermouse, Debbie,
VERY NICE!!!!!!!
Dawn |
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People in the Netherlands and Czech Republic have done this for years. Look at many of the current studs from prominent Czech kennels and you will see showlines within 3-4 generations and usually gorgeous looking dogs. They work quite well also as evidenced by many being acquired by PD's. Of course the hardcore schutzhund people don't like them but then some of them still have the ancient mentality that ALL Czech dogs are nervy. Of course show people won't touch them because they aren't the right color/pigment and extreme enough. Who cares whay these camps think in the big scheme of things? If the dog is sound is capable of sport and police and familiy work then the good Capt. is Happy. |
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I have a female who has working lines in gen 5,6, and 7. So I am not doubting it can be done. But she is no doubt what someone would call a showdog that can work. I guess this would be a "goal".
As usual my comments got overlooked and twisted around...but that's okay. the German's do NOT really do this and we here are known as the "Black Hole" for GSD's...don't tell me no one has ever heard this. In the German dog arena it's well know. As for the top 10 Breeders here in the states doing this...I would like to see some. I haven't seen any out of Mittelwest or Wilhendorf...or Kolenda...or Fleischerheim. I would love to see them if they are out there. I know of a select few in years past but nothing of lately.
Kelly....would LOVE to talk more. And Alli....you are gonna be a great breeder!!! You definately are keeping it to German SV standard not AKC and you have the eye for a good dog. Charlie will also help you a LOT!!!!!!
And Dawn...we should all strive for another Gucci...that's what this is all about. Keeping our working breed just that. And He was a true asset to the breed. |
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My opinion on crosses:
The hybrids tend to bring the health of the working lines to the finer structure of the show lines, but diminish the showline-aspect when it comes to movement and conformation. As such, the results is a dog that is a perfectly healthy working or pet dog, but will not win any prises in the show arena. Subsequent generations can breed the showline look back in.
It doesn't inherently diminish working ability, and while some people shy away from hyrbids on the matter of "pure bloodlines" other people flock to them because they have next to no linebreeding. This is a draw for people who are worried about the over-inbreeding of the showline dogs.
The male is a cross from our kennel a while back. This dog is out of a workingline female, by a showline male. Two things I will note on this dog, which doesn't show up in the picture: a stocky build with very straight topline, and deep red-sable pigmentation.
Showline x Workingline Hybrid
Mother of the above dog: Ria vom Parchimer Land |
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