German Shepherd dog

just wanted a rant...what on earth were the kc thinking???

i became a member over a year ago and have since realized IT MEANS NOTHING.

i have had no home check no phone call not a flippin sausage what a waste of £15

has anyone had a home check??

it is apparent that this is yet another money making scheme and nothing to do with good breeding practice.

its about time that good breeders were recognised properly .

what do you think?

i also joined this scheme and like you have never had a visit.

I do beleive they need to reevaluate their ethics of the scheme. IE: maximum hip score etc.

thank you for the reassurance but i still think we need more from the kc perhaps some sort of gold stamp for those of us who go the extra mile with health testing etc. i do feel let down by the kc as the scheme sounded great separating the byb's from the truly good breeders.

but i am very pleased to hear that at long last they are checking us out i cant wait for my inspection they will think I'm completely barmy (my hubby thinks im mad) just spent a fortune on new kitour new puppy play pen

good point videx i haven't heard of any other inspections apart from superdogs

One can compare other organisations on this.

BAGDS/ League and the Breed Council all have a list of  Breeders who are expected to  be  A1  because they abide by their rules? They sign the Breeders Charter.

BUT NONE are inspected becaues NO ONE has the LAW backing them in doing so, this is govenred by  honesty!

There are people on those lists who really do need to be inspected, are there not?

The RSPCA  can appear at ones door but you do not HAVE to allow them onto your property although it might be in your best  interests to do so.

There is not only our breed that are being inspected but all who care to apply to join.

One of the many  items one has to pass out to the new purchaser is a questionnaire which YOU as an Acc. Breeder request they fill in. Now that done  it can also leave one in the firing line.

One actually has to state in writing that one is affended by anothers  practises. I was told that if one cares to approach them at any of the registered functions one can have a list of Acc Breeders.
There are one has to say people on this list who should not be there, and ALL will be checked but it takes time. The person who came to me called only on two others that day in my area.

The scheme was promoted to GET PEOPLES INTEREST and get them to support. fo r 20 persons to be  taken from the scheme already tells one the check is being done really well.

I have been to kennels where I cannot understand how they ever function the stench comes to meet one. By the way this is another thing that is checked.

Superdog.

Deplorable, disgraceful, dishonest, disgusting, a farse, the ultimate in hipocracy - are but a few sentiments that spring to my mind when anyone mentions THE SHAM that is the KC's Acrredited Breeder Scheme.

I had major concerns about how it could possible work in favour of any breed at its concept, so much was my concern that I contacted the KC about them. What concerns might you ask? Well initially (for example) it concerned me greatly that breeders signing up for this scheme would without any doubt very soon themselves (some perhaps immediately find themselves) in a situation where there was NO STUD dog available  for them to use, therefore unless the KC made ALL breeders sign up to this scheme, the best breeders (trying to do the RIGHT THING) could soon find themselves either having nowhere to go for studs or using inferior specimens simply because they had, had all the relevent test done. To give another example, what was the point of DNA testing my own females, if the stud dog I want to use is not DNA tested? Without DNA from both parents, it was impossible to supply absolute proof of the breeding of any resulting pups, the implications of which, in a court of law, could be catatrophic should any puppy owner decide to ask for the proof!!! Afterall they did only come to you because you had SIGNED UP TO THE ACCREDITED BREEDER SCHEME.

So how seriously did the KC take my fears or suggestions ? This is where the farse begins, I was told not to worry because signing up for the scheme did not prevent me from using what stud dog I wanted to use!! In other words anyone could become an Accredited Breeder without doing all or in some cases even any of the health tests. At the same time seeming oblivious to the fact that there was No Purpose to a scheme that one could flaunt, except for those breeders who wanted a better outlet for their puppy sales and were quite prepared to 'pull the wool' over the new owners eyes in order to make their next sale. 

So much for my naive belief, that the KC were actually trying to do something POSITIVE this time. Thinking they had missed the fundamental flaw in the "Cart before the Horse" scheme, I had offered a suggestion that before introducing this scheme that over a period of years, they first 'Phase In' different elements of Breed Specific MANDATORY testing on all breeding stock, before pups can obtain KC registration.  All GSD's having acceptable Hip Scores for example, whereas DNA testing could be done for every dog being bred from, in every breed with immediate effect.  

In a nutshell, the KC had managed to introduce a scheme that was set to immediately become the biggest PUPPY SALE SCAM ever created

Needless to say,  as it currently stands there is more chance of the KC plaiting fog than getting me as a signatory to their AB Scheme.  A hipocrite I am not and have no intention of allowing the KC to turn me into one.  My signature and my promise actually means something, I have absolutely no intentions of signing up to A SHAM.  I tell my puppy owners THE TRUTH about what I have or have not tested for. How can anyone who has signed up for something they dont, or more to the point find it impossible to  adhere to, be trusted or believed? Think about it !!! (Mo, I know you are genuine as are many others signed up to this scheme, but just think how Mr Joe Public might view you should something go wrong and how would you stand in court?)

Best Regards

Sue B 

Mo,

PENNY  &  SUE.B.     I totally agree with you and very well written too !.

I find this sham of a scheme most embarrassing and very dificult to convince Joe public that its misleading at the highest level !.

So what , if anything can be done about this ?????.  Anybody got any ideas ?. If you have any ideas you can count me in to support them.

As far as I am concerned any scheme that allows you to register as a KCAB without ever even HAVING a litter is a total waste of time; one should EARN this title, not just pay for it.

Perhaps I have just become more synical these days but sadly,  Trueview what I think is that a petition would be a waste of time and also fear there would be less signatories prepared to sign in protest of the flaws in the AB Scheme than there was prepared to sign up for the Scam in the first place. I actually believe many have signed purely because as Scams goes it is probably a very profitable one, both for the Kennel Club and in extra puppy sales for unscrupulous breeders. What better way to make more money than have people queueing up to buy a pup from you because they think you are doing everything right whilst in essence, other than the cost of joining the KC A.B. Scheme, these breeders are probably spending less on other Health Screening Schemes than other breeders with more scruples.

If any petition is needed, it is one asking the Kennel Club WHY, as the UK's Governing Body for Pedigree Dogs, it has NEVER introduced any MANDATORY Health Screening to improve the quality of life for any dog, of any breed? It will be very interesting to see what excuses the KC could come up with, other than the obvious loss of revenue they would encounter from a drastic drop in pups viable for registration.

Regards

Sue B

Sue B - you certainly have very good points.

My question which I have already placed with the KC and never had a reply to is what is the point in screening when there are no upper limits.  Its a bit like having to sit a driving test knowing you cant fail!  The KC ABS requires breeders to undertake the relevant screening that has been chosen for the set breed but with no cut off point!

 Whats the point in screening for say hips when an ABS breeder can still use a dog whatever the score??

Also having a system where breeders pay - the best breeders I know of, and stud dog owners dont bother with the scheme but offer far more advice and support than many of the accredited ones, also undertake far more testing and are far more open about their dogs, their breeding records and progeny scores.

Beepy, not at all surprised you are still waiting for a reply from the KC,  it seems we both have un-answered questions !! The KC Pidgeon hole where all the un-answered question letters slot into must be drastically full ... or an awfully BIG Pidgeon. !!  

You also raise very relevent points regarding the lack of upper limit cut-offs for hip scores. In my opinion even the Breed Council have set them too high, but at least an upper limit is set, so it would be a start if the KC adopted the criteria for GSD's set by the BC (albeit that IMO that in itself is not nearly stringent enough).

So, Yes Beepy, your driving test analogy is spot on, except to say that not only can an ABS breeder use a dog whatever the score, they can even use a dog that has never been xrayed therefore having no score at all !!  Which takes your analogy one step further, i.e been able to drive without sitting the driving test or even having a lesson. 

Regards

Sue B 

I will put this to the panel meeting of the Breed Council in exactly the form written above from the excellent points..... printing off if I may your messages and taking them with me. The arguement for a re-jigging or collapsing of this scheme is here to be seen and is very valid.  If anyone has any point to make for me to take and speak with the panel about, then please email me at mascani22@aol.com and I will make sure that I bring up this point, and also have it put on the agenda for the next meeting to discuss.

Mo Lakin - Mascani.

Sue B I can happily say that I have heard of someone who tried to register a litter that was un hip scored (not a GSD) and they got a warning that they would be removed from the scheme if they did it again - whether the KC would I dont know.

As for when a person should go on the list I dont know - I keep hearing all the comments and still cant form a balanced view.  Which is right or wrong.

The person who doesnt show but produces fab consistent litters time after time and who has a record of healthy, long lived dogs?

The person who shows but gets side tracked trying to produce the perfect dog and is permantly re-homing the not so perfect reject?

The person who has bred for years but doesnt care where their dogs go or what their lives involve?

The person who waits for many years, learning as much as possible and is in a situation not only to screen prospective owners but to provide care in the future should the need arise and has made sure that all possible health checks have been done and has research the genetics of the lines and weighed up the good and the bad of all the possible choices.

IMO I think that whilst showing has its place there are many people who dont want to drive round the country after the elusive CC and get more rewards from working their dogs daily and see them through to their old age in front of the fire.  I dont like those that breed another litter because they want a newer car or have to pay the rates.

I think there are some breeders out there that have maybe worked with others gaining knowledge and might just be starting out who should be allowed to be an accredited breeder as although they havent bred in their own name they have done the work of someone who has bred many litters just under someone else's name.

And then there is the so called puppy farmer who registers 4 or more different breeds with the kennel club in huge numbers and gets the acreditation when in fact they should not be allowed to breed anything!

I look forward to watching this debate go further, on this forum, in the dog press and eventually on the KC website and in their magazine.

i am looking at setting up a gold stamp system where breeders are awarded points for health tests etc.                    (specifically for gsds)

i am not sure if it will work but i am definitely going to look into doing this. you never know.

i think if this can be done with the kennel club all the better.

if anyone thinks that they might be able to help/advise me in any way please send me a pm.

i will be talking to the kc later on in the week

wish me luck  (i will need it!!) lol

Tracie

arbeiter: It would not be interesting to know if you even own a dog! probably not.
You have a cheek asking anything about or of known people on here, and you don't even realise it.

fda - your reference to the healthy checks fits exactly with what I said earlier - using the analogy of sitting a test knowing you cant fail!

I think also that what ever you come up with in the way of recognising breeders witha stamp or something is that there are many extremely good breeders out there who dont want to sign up to a scheme - especially when they have to pay to do so.  Both in and out of the GSD world the best breeders I know for health screening, long term care support etc and being able to provide knowledge of several generation of dogs, either of their own breeding or by selecting studs from kennels with a history and who are undertaking the relevant screening and getting impressive results are not and do not want to be accredited breeders and most probably wouldnt get involved with a gold seal system either.  Also with their good reputations securely in place, with word of mouth referrals and people returning for more dogs they dont need to be part of any system.

HiAlbeiter,

I dont mind your question, the answer to it is yes, I am at last moving with the times.... Dayna is done, Dixie is done and I`m on my next one.  Not to fulfill criteria for this scheme that we are discussing, but to do it because its the right thing to do now that this is available and I am getting up to date with good practice in that area.

Your point proves the disability of the AC scheme - as I said in my first post, I joined it - if you like - to keep up with the Jones`es.  The fact that the odd puppy farmer can join the scheme if he has £15 to spare and hip scores his dogs has no bearing on whether they are worthy animals to breed from, or indeed old enough to breed from.  My feeling is that if you cant beat em ... (FOR NOW) ... join em.... rather than have a puppy farmer, or some-one that has never ever bred a litter - higher up the scale in recommendation by the K.C. to Joe Public than yourself.

When I sell a puppy, I let new owners know that the AB scheme - sometimes the reason they fo me in the first place - isnt worth the paper its written on, and they are amazed when I tell them that i have NEVER been checked out by the KC, I can divulge this readily, because when people buy a puppy from me , as well as being able to see everything that goes on, and the mental stability of my dogs and their surroundings - including a walk around the ones that are not relevant to the puppy - they get a written statement that the puppy/dog can come back at any time in its life if circumstances change.  They get full paperwork, a diet sheet, instruction leaflet, 6 week puppy course , a leaflet to join Justice for Dogs a written explanation as to why the endorsements are on the pedigree that they sign and keep a copy of so they understand it- and every phone number we own to contact if there is a problem.  Did I need this AB scheme, I dont think so, like others on this board - we do things right and did do long before the KC wanted to make money out of the need for people to find exceptional breeders, and then to not check whether their members of this scheme were actually worthy.

Sue

Lets support Tracie with her thoughts and plans, perhaps it will be a rough ride, but hey - it would be worth it to get rid of the nonsense of this money spinner for the K.C.  There are so many people have joined it, and yet see that it is nothing more than nonsense when they are not checked, that it cant last if challenged.   Mo Lakin - Mascani

NO Arbeiter, that is not what I am saying. But as usual it is either how limited you are at understanding or how you prefer to interpret it, constantly twisting words to suit your own crooked perception. You keep to your world Arbeiter and I'l keep to mine, must be a dark and dismal place you be to have so much negativity. God Bless, but then again perhaps it's a little too hot where you are for that kind of blessing, eh?

Regards

Sue B 

 Sue wrote ................................If you DNA tested your female what would be the point of you then taking her to any dog other than one that had been DNA tested under the same scheme, using the same markers?  

I Intend to take note of the dogs that have all the necessary requirements Sue.... then it would be meaningful, as it has to start some-where.   Mo

pencil: You DODGE the biggest question - who exactly are you?
Let me help you.
YOU ARE SIMON BLACK - from Chester
The Simon Black who should never be allowed to own any dog,
THAT IS WHO YOU ARTE - SIMON BLACK

Mo wrote..........   I Intend to take note of the dogs that have all the necessary requirements Sue.... then it would be meaningful, as it has to start some-where.   Mo

What do you consider are the necessary requirements then Mo...... UK DNA test or German DNA test? Because having one parent done in the UK scheme and one in the other is meaningless as it will not prove parentage!!.

Regards

Sue

German scheme for me at moment Sue.

Mo

Beepy writes

Surely it is better to use dogs that are proven healthy and screened for the normal conditions, rather than ensuring the DNA?? 

Agreed - the whole picture is a requirement - as much as one can do nowadays is good.  I hear what you say about 13 years ago, and I was enjoying that hey day too - but information and education regarding our breed has moved on, and in the main its improved knowledge (even if it is a little confusing at times)  I dont think we all should be jumping through hoops, but as I said on another thread - "just because you dont test for it, doesnt mean your dogs dont suffer from it" and I would rather know if there are problems than not know even if the result was disastrous.  - Mo Lakin

Zac: When are you and a few others going to realise that anonymous trolls should NOT make personal comments or  make snied remarks in any way about those who are NOT anonymous??? They do it solely bases on the knowledge they can "throw stones" without any being thrown back. There is a name for such people, and yes you know what it is "a coward!"

Videx:When are you and a few others going to realise that anonymous trolls should NOT make personal comments or  make snied remarks in any way about those who are NOT anonymous???

Where does it say that in the board rules?  People are entitled to an opinion and that doesnt have to be the same as yours. Live with it!

Maybe it is time you looked closer to home when accusing others of making sneid remarks about others. How many times have YOU, David, accused anonymous posters of being people they are not? Do you call these unfortunate named persons up later and apologise?

On the subject of identifying 'better breeders', has anyone noticed how few people have signed the Breed Council or GSDL Breeders charter? that've been running for as many years as I can remember.

Zac

Zac, READ THE FOLLOWING VERY CAREFULLY - AND FULLY UNDERSTAND THEY APPLY TO EVERYONE

Always be respectful of other users, the system, and the moderators. We put the system online in good faith, please use it in good faith.

This forum system is not a venue for personal or private vendetta's. Keep your personal business as just that - personal. This forum is not a venue for the resolution of personal disputes with members or companies.

Since this is interactive, and everyone who participates in pedigreedatabase.com is "in it together", please treat others the way you wish to be treated. One way to guard against misunderstandings is to read over your response before you post it. Flaming: flaming or personal attacks are not allowed or tolerated. Should anyone use inappropriate language, start a personal attack, or engage in hate speech, they will be barred from all further discussions.

Personal exposure. Any posting another members personal details or web site details without permission will be banned.

tigermouse-tracie ????

what does any of those names mean-i bet 95% no 99% have no idea who you are and more to the point don't care-so to keep banging on about aliases is just so you and your ilk AVOID the more serious challenging questions.

un beknown to your clique a persons name does not alter the questions put in front of you.after all this is what this forum is about-videx has already told you as i have on here many times my name-simon black.

videx:

your last message about the rules of this forum-DOESN'T IT APPLY TO YOU THEN ????

Videx: READ THE FOLLOWING VERY CAREFULLY - AND FULLY UNDERSTAND THEY APPLY TO EVERYONE

That would include you too?

Take a second look at what you have written about Simon Black (above) before you answer that!

Zac

pencil.

why dont you vent all of that pent up anger out on your x-box instead of making a fool out of yourself in front of very wise and experienced folk? the point of this thread is at the top of this page! any USEFUL suggestions? TM its about time sombody stepped up to the plate, you go girl. ROB.

Beepy:

I agree with all of your comments earlier - and as Sue said, you are a breath of fresh air - too many people now buyng GSD`s (or any other breed for that matter) and thinking lets get breeding, rather than lets get studying the breed and its traits first - well done.  

HEY !!! By the Way EVERYONE ..... has this thread improved standards already ???   I had a tele call this afternoon, and I am going to be visited by the K.C. to see if my accreditation level is ok  -  YEEEEEES   !!!  RESULT !!!!!!!!!!!  I made an appointment right away in case he got away and I didnt hear from him again....I am really pleased to see that perhaps others read this thread and take it back to KC level, because its too much of a co-incidence after all we have been saying on here..

I asked for my clubs proposal re the discussion of this to go on the Breed Council agenda yesterday.....

I am really looking forward to my visit, I dont know who will have the most questions to ask, the KC man or me... No - cancel that thought I know exactly who will have the most questions to be asked.

Mo Lakin - Mascani.

pencil.

my name is Tracie meynell i live in leicestershire  i hope this answers your questions if not ask away... (by the way you never asked me who i was....lol i cant read minds ) 

i have nothing to hide.

Tracie