German Shepherd dog

Im guessing the average is based on the mean score gathered from the dogs put forward for scoring.

I am in agreement with you and due to personal experience, hips are a great issue to me.  I too want the average lowered and would like some sort of enforcement to stop people using dogs with high scores - which at the moment there is none.  However, There are many dogs who are not scored here in the UK but who are either taken to Germany for xray and scoring or their plates are.  If those dogs were to be scored here and had good scores it would affect the BVA results and in turn lower the BVA average.

I would also like to see progeny results published by breeders and some form of restriction placed on new stud dogs until their first few litters are scored, rather than a mass overuse in the first year and then bad results appearing and increasing the mean score or even the plates not going through for scoring.

Hip scoring average is worse now than it was in 1980 when the average was 15.5, despite the fact that  for the last 20 years, very few obviously bad hips ever get as far as the BVA, the real average nowadays is probably in excess of 20.  Restriction of studs would not be a workable solution, it would be no more than a witch hunt since the stud is only half the pedigree, you can't blame him 100% for any problems and environment also plays a great part.  

Margaret N-J

Videx.    Yes how right you are !.  I would have thought that any reputable breeder would be most happy for this to happen.

The K.C. should have made it compulsory years ago that progeny from unscored parentage were not eligible for Registration !!!!!.  ( pigs might fly ! ).

Also while the Breed Council's guide lines for hip scores suitable for breeding are SO HIGH with I might add NO mention of elbow scores then breeders will carry on breeding with higher scores !!!.

The KC are simply afraid of making health screening issues compulsory, afraid of losing REGISTRATION BUSINESS. They are also afraid of making DNA testing for parentage compulsory because of the high levels of FAILURES they certainly would face, particularly amongst the IN HOUSE BREEDERS (never venture out of their own kennels for any mating) who can state any sire in their kennel to any dam in their kennel on any mating they do. Many of these breeders are probably KC members also. Mind you these IN HOUSE BREEDERS will continue to harp on about outside attraction at GSD shows, simply to detract attention away from theri own breeds underbelly. We in GSD fail to focus our response to those attacking our manner of presenting our dogs at their very best with STATIC outside attraction. We should very clinically and very thoroughly select other breeds and PILE PRESSURE ON THEM targeting their underbellies. PRESSING FOR COMPULSORY DNA TESTING FOR PARENTAGE WILL MAKE MANY OTHER BREEDS SHIT THEMSELVES. they may then learn to be VERY CAREFUL about provoking our wrath.

hello everybody,

As a new GSD association/club we adopted the german methods of starting to take X-rays of elbow and hips, our main concern was the vets that are going to take and then analise the xrays(the vets in question are those at the faculty of vetenery medicine here in İstanbul) ,therfore we have decided to have them go to german for extra education on these matters,do we all agree that the german way of scoring is the best method or is there countries that are doing a better job.

any input will be most welcome,

emir ali sadaghiani

2007 breed warden

Alman Coban Kopekleri Dernegi (Turkish German Shepherd Association) ACKB

I personally do not see what outside attraction etc has to do with wanting to score dogs and yes for some the show scene is a big thing, however there are many good breeders out there who do use other outside dogs and consistently produce healthy well bred offspring and are a bonus for our breed.  Not every one has the time, inclination or ability to travel round the country to shows.  There are also those who concentrate more on the working style of dog who do not show, surely it is for the best of the breed that scoring is done and explained to buyers of puppies (most of whom go to pet homes) the benefit of buying a dog that has all relevant screening done.

However why should the KC enforce such a system when so many UK breeders fail to support the BVA/KC system and only send plates to the SV?  I fully understand the desire to show in Germany, but seeing as the offspring is sold in the UK surely their parents - especially UK bred ones should have UK scores?

It is facile to argue that those GSD breeders/exhibitors who live in the UK should be made to use the BVA/KC hip scheme, and ALL dogs x-rayed for HD MUST have their plates submitted for scoring. I simply ask "what about those that DO NOT HAVE THEIR DOGS HIP SCORED AT ALL?????  Surely it is ridiculous to harp on about those that have hips graded only under the SV system, and ignore the much bigger problem.

If the KC had the balls or more importantly pedigree dogs health at heart, they would make hip scoring compulsory for ALL breeds, and compulsory that any x-rays taken for hip scoring MUST be submitted. A SIMPLE step for mankind, a HUGE, step for the KC.
I would NEVER accept any selective compulsion from the KC solely directed at those who "volunteer" to have their dogs hips scored/graded. while others can choose NOT to have their dogs hip scored.

I imagine it is hard for the KC to formally impose a rule on one breed when it is something that they cannot impose on all breeds.  They have tried to do it - all be it unsuccessfully - on those who sign up for the accredited breeders scheme - as they have to abide by the health screening etc or be penalised.

However if those who are quite visible in the breed promote such a scheme, do so very visibily it can only push the KC towards such a system.  I have read only very recently that they are going to do more research into DM within the GSD and the more support they can be given can only be a good thing.  The KC will only push something such as compulsory scoring before registration when the majority are doing so - therefore if every one who feels this should be implemented gets their dogs scored then they can push for such a scheme.

If you are going down that line I for one would like enforcement of dogs meeting a certain age before they are used at stud - something which isnt done now - even within the breed clubs rules in the UK and as I keep saying a transparency in progeny information.  What good is it for a dog to be promoted and promoted for years to find that actually its progeny 1st generation are good but for 2nd generation to be poor?

Beepy

Did you know that you can become an accredited breeder without ever having bred a litter,for a fee I believe of £15

No checks no balances!!.

I agree all breeding stock should be hip and elbow x-rayed and submitted.

Julie

In his interview with WUSV aktuell, Reinhardt Maeyer SV National Breed Warden, was asked the following question:
WUSV aktuell: Keyword: “Breed Assessment?”
For years, we have practiced a breed assessment in terms of the HD. However, we must sadly realise that this breed assessment, in the form that we practice it, is not successful. This finding has been classified in the meantime by top class geneticists. The breed committee in collaboration with experts form the main branch office are looking, and finding, alternative methods which will promise success.
See: http://www.videxgsd.com/interview_with_reihardt_meyer.htm
Maybe the SV will consider a new HD scheme along the following lines: http://www.videxgsd.com/early_hip_screening.htm

As yet I have not bred any litters and will not have crossed your radar.  It is however my wish to go into this area in the future.

I do however feel that you wish the KC to do one thing when you actively seek scoring elsewhere.

beepy: Your lack of knowledge and experience is very apparent. You know little or nothing about most aspects of breeding GSD or exhibiting GSD, yet you feel able to debate and pass comment and judgement without many facts or much knowledge. Sadly you are an example of modern British newbies into our breed scene. Know very little but assume all. You may one day understand why many breeders in the UK use the SV hip scheme, and not the BVA/KC scheme out of preference. You may one day undertsand the SV Zuchtwert (ZW) which is an integral pand very important part of the SV scheme. You may one day understand all the requirements of the SV when exhibiting or qualifying a GSD under their rules and regulations. In the meantime try and learn about the UK GSD scene and KC systems and rules & regulations first, before you pass any judgement or comments on those who have vast knowledge and experience, frequently spanning 30 or more years, and those who were involved in hip scoring when it first became available.

beepy; forgive me if I see no point in debating this subject matter with you any further.

Tigermouse - Im with you all the way - if we could get the KC behind it, things would improve.  It will be interesting to see if the study that they do into DM shows any links to high hipscores and if so maybe this would encourage them to do something.  I'd love to see the score down to 15 or even lower.

All I want is for things to improve for the breed, I recognise that there are different fields within the breed, the 2 sides of the british show scene, the international show scene, the shutzhund, the working lines, those used by the guide dogs, those seen as "pet" GSDs.  So on the health issues there should be no them and us it should be a whole - and then hopefully with a united front the GSD world can get the KC to make some hard and fast rules, but unfortunately until all breeders recognised the need for screening and results to be back before mating dogs - and not afterwards, sometimes years down the road there will be no way forward.  We also need a simple scheme that everyone both breeder/pet owner etc can understand not a different standard for different countries.

Also if there was a consistent standard I for one would find it easier when people admire my dogs and ask my to recommend a breeder I could do so more easily, and not have to spend so long explaining the different information that they find on pedigrees, or have to suggest they travel so far to one I can recommend, as often the breeders I know dont have litters or wont be having any for a long time.

so what can we do?

I very rarely "pop my head above the parapet" on Database as it can attract so much negative comment, but hips and elbow gradings are so important.  I fully agree with Videx that the KC has a responsibility towards the general public who buy our puppies just as much as they have towards the breeders. Could there be a case made for the development of a scheme issuing some form of "gold seal papers" (equivalent to SV pink papers) that are provided by the KC when the progeny registered are from scored parents. This would promote the best breeders who have invested a considerable amount of money in screening to a higher status in the public eye as opposed to the ones who do not screen their animals.  This may raise the question - where do we stop in testing our breeding stock?  There are so many hereditary problems affecting our breed (and all the rest too!)  but that should NOT stop us from starting such a system - once started a juggernaut is VERY hard to stop!  Education of the public and their expectations is vital too - perhaps at a public forum such as Discover Dogs (forget Crufts - that's all about commercial revenue nowadays).  Our National Breed Clubs have a huge part to play and the use of  their websites can help here.  The KC are very reluctant to use a "big stick" to penalise people and prefer to use a "carrot " approach in incentivising breeders, (although their accredited breeder leaves a lot to be desired)

Of course X-raying our breeding stock (we use parallel grading - both BVA/KC and SV) is the most basic of steps but we must not forget that HD is a polygenic condition,  and from time to time a high score will pop its nasty little head up in even the most meticulous of kennels.  The answer there is to breed only from the best - making sure you try also to retain all the other important attributes of our breed.

A word of warning too.  I believe that in the UK there has been a legal precedent set by a breeder of Golden Retrievers whereby you can be sued by a purchaser if there is an accredited scheme, their puppy suffers from a particular problem, and you have not ensured the parents have been screened properly.  In this litigious age it is more than likely you could be held responsible by a purchaser in the UK - after all (believe it or not) your precious little puppies are viewed legally as being "merchandise" - covered by the Trade Descriptions Act (can't remember which year!!!) -exactly the same as a vaccuum cleaner or a dress!

I'm putting on my flak jacket now - expecting criticism from the usual suspects - but heigh-ho!

Alyson R - I think it is fab that you parallel grade.  Means the best of both worlds, the english "Joe Bloggs" will understand your scores without you being affected on the show scene, and helps people when looking at your dogs for breeding. 

I think you also nailed it when you said "making sure you try also to retain all the other important attributes of our breed."

Well done you.

As for the legal ramifications of the modern society, unfortunately that is something that hounds every aspect of life from walking down the road onwards.  I think purchasers should be made aware that you have done the best you can and should also be aware of the effects that they can also have on the dog and should be made to sign a legal document to that effect - removing the ability to "sue" in the future.

I think 19 is far too high and would not buy from a sire or dam that had hip scores in double figures nor would I use a dog that with a hip score in double figures.

I also think that elbow scoring should be compulsory and eye testing.

My dog is HD and ED scored, eye screened annually as well as blood tested.