The Pedigree Database: German Shepherd dog

Question.

Can anyone tell me why we must do our hips and elbows and Dna through the League system?

As far as I was aware you did Hips and Elbows under the BVA/KC system not the league.  I also prefer the British system as it gives an exact score rather than a flat rating.  When you think that normal can be anything up to 18 under the UK system, the UK is a more definitive score rather than blanketing them.  It also allows the viewing of imbalances again something the other schemes dont do.

yes beepy you are correct its the BVA not the league the average is 19 but imo should be lower anyway thats another thread

Sorry,what i mean is for those of us who wish to do the German scheme.If we want to compete in Germany we must do the A Stamp,Elbows and Dna.

Why must we go through the league.

Hi Karen

If you have the dogs xrays done in the UK, then to be submitted to the SV they must go via this countries WUSV club/s and I believe the GSDL was the club which set up the Working Party for this system of submitting the plates, what you also have to realise is that you only have to be a member of the GSDL in order to submit them to the German System and therefore not necessary for you to have SV membership.

Alternatively, if you have SV membership and dog has Pet Passport you could have its xrays done in Germany and the German vet would then submit the plates direct to the SV for you , using your SV membership number. There will also be a fee of course for your dog to be registered with the SV , hence reason you need a 5 Gen pedigree to send along with plates if you go through GSDL system,

In other words using the GSDL scheme just saves you the hassle of Pet Passport, SV Membership, Travelling to Germany, Completing your own paperwork, etc but if you are an SV member, your dog is pet passported, you travel to Germany often (or often enough) and you possibly have some German friends who will help you find the right German vets and complete all the necessary German forms then you dont HAVE TO use the GSDL scheme. 

That's as I understand it anyway, though obviously I stand prepared to be corrected.

Regards

Sue B

tigermouse - Im with you, I think 19 is too high, which is why I dont really like the "normal" that so many people go to Germany for as I feel it doesnt show the higher scores - I would like them to show the lower end of the scale separately.

Im pleased to say that my current bitch has scored 2:6 and Im yet to get my younger one done - something I must do, but havent organised as I want to make sure I get the best x-rays possible, and havent got my old vet any more!

Bee;py, Tigermouse I also agree with you on this. I firmly believe we should first be supporting our own Country's scheme, so if a dog/bitch is born and bred in this country then it's xrays should go through our BVA/KC hip scoring scheme, especially if the owners intend breeding on from it here, because the BVA/KC score is the one that appears on the KC Registration papers of all of its progeny - which is very important as it is the only way Mr Joe Public (who buys these pups) can be certain that the breeder has told the truth about the hip score of "his puppies" parents.

However the German scheme is required for those who want to exhibit in Germany and it is good that a scheme is available for those who wish to do this. As for cost, yes it would cost more to do both, but if you can afford to have hips done through German Scheme to exhibit abroad then you can afford to put them through the Uk scheme too, no excuse.

Regards

Sue B

Well said Sue B - shame you cant put that to all breeders/exhibitors!!

Can someone confirm for me - the exact translation of hips that are 'a f/normal'?

Hi Beepy,  Presumably would stand for  'a' fast normal .

Regards

Sue B

Am I right in thinking that equates to 19-25 on the BVA score?

Hi Sue,

Thank you for answering my question and i understand what you have said.But being an SV member and a League member why cant i submit my own plates and pay for them from the uk.It is a good scheme and we have supported it from the beginning.

Is there a reason why i and anyone else cant do it themselves .

Going through the scheme is soooo long winded and most of the time the plates arent sent of for a good few months(this has been my experince).When you are needing the results ASAP this is no good.I can do it myself and have the results back in 3 weeks.

No you are wrong in thinking that, the German A stamp is a lot tougher than you think. WE have a female with BVA 2:2 who has A stamp normal, a female with BVA 4:4 with a fast normal and a friend has one that is 10:6 and she failed the A stamp, not even a NZ rating. The German system is very hard to equate to the BVA system and much harder to get a good A stamp. 

Is there anywhere that you can get a translation? as Its hard to understand the comparisons between different countries.

beepy: There is no comparison, they are two different schemes. the SV scheme puts much more emphasis on subluxation, where the BVA/KC scheme measures nine different points on each hip. If you have 3-3 on subluxation under the BVA/KC sckheme, and maybe a few more points elsewhere, your dog could end up with 5:5 = 10 under the BVA/KC scheme yet FAIL or be lucky to get a 3rd grade Noch Zuglassen under the SV scheme. When you consider the NINE points under the BVA/KC scheme it does NOT differentiate their importance, and SUBLUXATION is clearly more serious than most other points. SUBLUXATION is how far out of the socket the ball is.
X-factor - the reason we have to do the German scheme under the GSD League and NOT by ourselves under a Vet of our own choice, is the Scheme is administered by the two WUSV Clubs in the UK, with the approval of the SV, and x-rays can only be done in the UK by SV approved Vets, and using SV forms, and sent through the two UK WUSV Clubs REGISTRAR, which is Sid Farley. Of course if you are an SV member you may choose to have them done in Germany, under an SV approved Vet there, using your SV membership number. My friend Philip Prince had Shernaa Tikka done in Germany under an SV approved Vet.
There is no way to avoid doing them under the auspices of the two WUSV Clubs in the UK, when doing it in the UK. I get very frustrated with the time it takes, usually 2 to 3 months. I am lead to believe the delay is mainly down to the SV grading system, which is apparently painfully slow.

Hi Karen,

As I said earlier, if you have your dog xrayed by a Vet here in the UK then the plates must be submitted to the SV via our    WUSV Member Club/s. These are the WUSV rules, I suppose there are various reasons for them and can guess that one of the main reasons for the SV wanting them all to go through the member club is so that no matter how many xrays are submitted the SV only have one body to communicate with (i.e. the GSDL Registrar), as opposed to many individual bodies if everyone was sending in their own xrays seperately.

Regards

Sue B

I have sent hip plates through the scheme which have still be in the uk a month after i sent them.One dog we had done in June and we didnt get the results till Oct (BIT LATE IF WE WANTED TO SHOW AT THE SIEGER).The plates didnt leave the uk till Sept????? When i have sent my own plates i know they get there in 3 days and i can track the package.

I have had two plate results back in 14 days......BIG DIFFERENCE.

Has anyone esle had the same problem?

To be honest Karen we time our X rays with shows in Germany and get them done then. It's so much quicker and easier and also cheaper if you are going to Germany anyway.

Hi Karen, What you state above is a very serious problem. There is absolutely no excuse for ANY delay in sending of plates for grading from the UK.  a delay in despatching x-ray plates from JUNE until SEPTEMBER is appalling.
Videx Luigi was x-rayed (hips & elbows) on the 1st February 2008 and the grading posted to us from Carol Lister (GSDL Secretary) on the 8th April 2008. a 10 week period.

Carol if people feel they have to coincide hips etc with a show in Germany then that proves something is wrong.I have found it really easy to do from the uk.How quickly did you get your results by having it done in Germany.

Mr Payne,this wasnt the first time this had happened ,we did it the League way on a few occasions and the same  thing happened.The reason i feel compelled to write now is , i have now done hips etc of my own back and seen a  totally different time scale.

I have spoken to other people who have had similar problems,and it is sooo frustrating as it is out of your control and you have to believe what you are being told.

And the dog we did in June we actullay didnt get the results back till Oct,i have just checked.It just wasnt good enough.

Carol if people feel they have to coincide hips etc with a show in Germany then that proves something is wrong.I have found it really easy to do from the uk.How quickly did you get your results by having it done in Germany.

Mr Payne,this wasnt the first time this had happened ,we did it the League way on a few occasions and the same  thing happened.The reason i feel compelled to write now is , i have now done hips etc of my own back and seen a  totally different time scale.

I have spoken to other people who have had similar problems,and it is sooo frustrating as it is out of your control and you have to believe what you are being told.

And the dog we did in June we actullay didnt get the results back till Oct,i have just checked.It just wasnt good enough.

Mr Payne,

I mean this in the nicest way,but i am sure you would have no delay as everyone would know about it.I sent Tramella Orange plates on the 27th of March.Got the results 14 days later,still awaiting the pedigree but that is not such a problem.

Hi Karen,

I went through the scheme to have some elbows done, which were done and given to Nikki farley on December 1st, they weren't sent for three months!!!

We only found this out by calling the SV and asking what the results were for the elbows, the SV stated that they had no record of the results for the elbows! only for the hips which were done in Germany by a vet and which we had back in 2 weeks.

We then called about the plates to Nikki and she said they were still on the desk and had not been sent!!!! She forgot....so another further 3 months down the line we get them back at the end of April!!! THIS TOOK ALL OF 6 MONTHS IN TOTAL a disgrace..

Jackie

Depending on the time of year, but if you do them in Germany you normally have the results within a few weeks, It takes longer around July time when everyone is getting hips done on youngsters so they have the results for the Sieger show.

I have not used the League scheme so cant comment, we dont have that many dogs for X ray, maybe one or two at the most a year so it is very easy to coincide with a trip to Germany for us.

Hi Karen: I much prefer to be called David. I do understand what you mean, however I genuinely care about fairness and equal treatment, as well as efficiency, so it really concerns me when an important process is unduly delayed. I too suffer nerves when having my dogs x-rayed, and one can never be sure about a grade, so speed of process and results are essential. Perhaps we need to consider introducing a time recorded system for submission through to the results of x-rays & DNA done under the SV system here in the UK, through the GSDL.

Hi Karen

As I understand it, are you now saying that you have had Xrays done here in the UK, sent them off to the SV yourself and not only were they accepted direct from you but you got the results back quicker?

If that is the case then we have to go back to the question you originally started this thread with " Why do we have to send Xray's to the SV via the GSDL?"

I am also concerned about the extensive delay caused in sending and receiving results sent via the GSDL.

Regards

Sue B 

That should read ; - Not having used the scheme yet myself, I am also concerned about the extensive delay's in sending and receiving results sent via the GSDL being reported here, more especially the reasons given for the cause of delay.

Regards

Sue B

Ok Hi David (ohh er)  not only is it a nervous time but also sometimes you are needing the results back ASAP for showing purposes etc.

Hi Sue,

Yeh my heading isnt great (not great with words).If you have done your own hips etc for the German system as you will know you need to complete all your own paperwork and the vet signs and checks that he/she is dealing with the correct dog.Then you package it all up and then forward to the UK address.You do all this as quick as you can as you want the results as soon as poss.It then seems that it all falls apart (or it has for some people) at the uk address.

So all i have done is sent the plates directly to the SV,who then seem to process them very quickly , i then email them and can get the results.With Tramella Orange they cant send me the pedigree back directly to me as the are awaiting payment form the club.I asked if i could pay directly and was told i couldnt as the sv has a contract  with the league.This is a slight hiccup in comparision to the plates not getting to the SV for months.But when the club pays for it i then assume that the pedigree is sent to the club who will have to bill me and then forward the pedigre back to me..................What a merry go round.And hopefully my pedigree wont get lost in the post after all this toing and frowing.

Hi Karen,

So plates were sent direct to the SV and results processed even though your dog (or so it appears from reading what you said) was not registered with the SV because they can only accept payment for his pedigree registration via the League?

By the way, when you sent the xray plates direct to the SV presumably you sent payment for there process along with them but you couldnt send extra payment to pay for SV Pedigree because it had to go through the GSDL ? And this is due to some agreement the SV have with the League?  I am sure this must be illegal because under the FCI system the KC have to accept Pedigree's from Germany and they dont have to go through the GSDL first, surely this arrangement is a MONOPOLY and therefore UNLAWFUL under the Human Rights Bill. (Reason it is unlawful is that if you are an individual member of the SV you shouldnt be forced to become a member of some other Club as well before being afforded the same Equal Rights as every other member of the SV).

Regards

Sue B  

Hi Sue ,

Correct.

But i really dont know about the Human rights law etc.All i want is us and other people be able to   send of our own plates with payment (as you would with the BVA).

Then no one has to try and plan doing a show in Germany with doing the plates as this isnt always convienent,chasing up after your plates with endless phone calls to find out they are sat on someones dinning room table still in the uk.

David got his plates back in 10 weeks which is MUCH better than myself and Wacky,but having done two myself i think this time scale could be even less.I can understand that these things take time and i dont expect a quick turn around every time.BUT someting does need to be done as our system just isnt good enough.

I understand that the pople who are at our end of things do this purely in their own time for no payment and that is great ,but once i have done all my paperwork all that needs doing is posting.......ISNT IT.

Hi Sue ,

Correct.

But i really dont know about the Human rights law etc.All i want is us and other people be able to   send of our own plates with payment (as you would with the BVA).

Then no one has to try and plan doing a show in Germany with doing the plates as this isnt always convienent,chasing up after your plates with endless phone calls to find out they are sat on someones dinning room table still in the uk.

David got his plates back in 10 weeks which is MUCH better than myself and Wacky,but having done two myself i think this time scale could be even less.I can understand that these things take time and i dont expect a quick turn around every time.BUT someting does need to be done as our system just isnt good enough.

I understand that the pople who are at our end of things do this purely in their own time for no payment and that is great ,but once i have done all my paperwork all that needs doing is posting.......ISNT IT.

Sorry dont know why i am going on twice.....Once is enough!!!

Hi Karen, I had Connies hips and elbows done both under the BVA and SV at the same time as soon as she turned 1 year, which was February 07, by June they still hadn't come back from SV and I got them 6-7 months or so after I had had them done my vet here was giving up on them, Anke in Germany had hers done and back in 2 weeks. Any future dogs I want x-rayed I shall have done in Germany now.

Interesting though she scored 4:7 BVA hips and 0:0 elbows and came back with SV A Stamp Normal.

There is an even longer wait for results in the U.K.  for those that are now x-raying using the digital system , they are taking between 6 to 8 weeks !.

I'm told the reason for this is because the B.V.A. are not yet set up for reading digital X-rays so they have to be sent from the vets to somwhere to be put on normal plates and then sent to the B.V.A. for scoring  ?.

Although the digital X-rays are much clearer to look at I do worry that there could be interference with them along the way as its very easy to do once on a disc !,

Hi Karen, you have raised several very important issues regarding the conduct of the SV hip/elbow/DNA systems here in the UK. Uneccessary delay and security of pedigree can be dealt with very effectively if we (SV members) were offered a more direct process where we could send then direct to the SV. Surely this can be facilitated.

Hi Ann , Hopefully we will be able to sort something out so we will all nnot have the need to go to Germany to have them done.Good scores though.

Hi David, i do hope we can sort this out as we all know how important it is.Do you know how other countries deal with this can they go directly to the SV.

I have been able to this but have been told its not agreeable and i am not really sure as to the reason why.

I suppose this can be raised at the next League meeting,or maybe someone can come onto this board and explain why this is happening?

I know of someone who is on the working side and wished to compete in Germany who  made use of the german scheme and  a year later still had no result.

They approached all at  a show and was informed they still had not been sent off and the payment had now run out.

They were not amused, so requested the X-rays back and have taken them to a french Vet who is submitting them.

Hi Karen: In Holland they travel to Germany to use a German Vet. 
This needs further progression and investigation, both here with the WUSV Clubs and in Germany, directly with the SV.

I have had a young male x-rayed under the League scheme just recently,the BVA results were back in 4 weeks,the SV results back in 6 weeks.

At this time of the year the continental breeders are all getting their stock done in readiness for the Show season and the Sieger show so the system is very busy.

I took my lad beginning of March results middle of April!!

Hope this is of assistance

Julie

I will try and give some of the answers to peoples concerns.  We have had 2 occasions only where an envelope got put on the desk and something got put on top of it and it was sent off late.  It was not done deliberately I can assure you - most xrays are sent off within 3 days maximum.  We have had several cases where the pedigree has been sent from the SV with no stamp on it and it has had to be returned - this always takes a long time.  The reason the SV would only deal through the working group which was at their insistence was because they then know that they will be paid straight away and do not have to chase money from individuals in another country which I understand is very difficult.  We have asked on many occasions why it takes so long sometimes and they have chosen not to reply to that question!  I must admit that I prefer to take my own dogs to Germany as it is much quicker and also the vets fees are MUCH cheaper -  so I can't get it through any quicker through England for my own dogs!  There is no requirement for anyone to be a member of either the League or BAGSD it they are a SV member and provide us with their membership no. so we are not trying to gain extra members through this either but it is a help for those who are not members of the SV but wish to paricipate in the SV schemes.  As it has been pointed out we get no payment for this work and would be delighted for someone else to offer to take up this task - it is there for the taking!  Nikki

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