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Classified: GSD Puppies-Ghandi & Ursus Grandbabies!!
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Anyone with legal knowledge??? (18 replies)
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I am wondering what can be done when a verbal agreement only exists between stud owner and bitch owner as far as changing breeding times...
I have a friend who has to change a breeding date due to uncontrollable circumstances with her job and the stud owner will not allow her to pushe the breeding back or even refund the fee.
Seems unfair and I was wondering if anything can be done to get the fee back as this stud owner is very uncooperative. The option was given to change the breeding date to the next heat cycle to no avail.
This is not a male that is on lease to the US for a short time...he resides here.
Anyone have any ideas? |
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neohaus,
First I will say that, unfortunately, a verbal agreement is only worth the paper that it is written on.......
Depending on the state you are in, there doesn't seem to be much that can be done. Perhaps if you would like to PM me privately, I can give you some more indepth info.
Christine |
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I have a bit of legal knowledge concerning contracts. A verbal contract or agreement is as stated in the previous post. I have never heard of a verbal agreement that has been argued successfully in a court and one side or the other won the case.
Bruce Morrison |
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Unfortunately, that's why I don't do business without some sort of written and signed mutual agreement, ESPECIALLY when it involves friends/family. Even if it's simple, it helps so that everyone knows where they stand in the matter and what is to be done if for some reason the planned breeding doesn't take place or something happens.
If your friend can find someone who can be dependable to help her get the breeding she's paid for, maybe she should work it out that way (having a trustable 3rd party to help take her female for breeding and help with the pups if she can't do it all herself), or consider the stud fee paid an expensive learning experience. I'm not being calloused here, but it's not the stud owner's fault the situation with the other party's job changed-the stud owner didn't change things, so the change is not the fault of the stud owner. At the same time, if a breeding is not taking place NOR a future breeding being done for the next heat (is the refusal for a next-heat breeding at the decision of the stud owner, or female owner?), why the stud owner would wanna keep your friend's money with her having nothing to show for it sounds not right to me. If it's your friend's choice to not do a future breeding, either, then there's not alot to say about it except I'm sorry to hear she's got herself into such a costly mess. I doubt she'll ever plan to stud her female to an outside male again without a written contract/agreement. |
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Neohaus,
I can't really understand the "problem"??? If the "breeding female's" owner isn't asking for a refund of "stud fees".........why is it an issue to use the same stud at a later date??
I've never heard of a stud dog owner....denying a "breeding" that is already pre-paid.........I find the situation very strange.!.....maybe your friend should run away from the "future joining" of these two dogs,....as fast as her feet can carry her!!!! Trouble from the beginning is a very bad sign!
JMO
Robin
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I agree with Robin. I'm not sure how customary it is to charge up front for a stud fee on a breeding that hasn't taken place yet but I myself would not have been comfortable with that deal. I think what's fair is exactly what your friend is asking- for a future breeding. The stud dog owner doesn't sound like they have much integrity and clearly are only out looking for the cash and nothing more. I think what would have been reasonable is the stud dog owner should not have taken any money until the breeding took place and pregnancy was confirmed. Or at best only taken 1/2 the stud fee up front and the rest to be paid after pregnancy was confirmed. After all if the breeding doesn't take for whatever reason then depending on what the agreement was in the beginning would determine if another stud fee was due to the bitch's owner or a refund given on the initial stud fee without using the stud on the next try.
Verbal agreements are weak in court. I deal with contracts on a daily basis and I've found even when dealing with the most "trusting" people it's amazing how fast they lose their memory when things don't go their way. I never do anything regardless of how big or small without some form or written verification. Even something as simple as an email exchanged is better than nothing. My suggestion to your friend is to do what she can to get this breeding she paid for done so she doesn't lose out on the stud fee because it does not sound like the stud dog owner is gonna be very reasonable. |
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A verbal agreement ( verbal contract) is as legal and binding as a written contract, however, you have to be able to prove it happened as you state it did. Without a tape recording or witness (preferably an impartial one), you are up a creek without a paddle. Unless of course the "other" party admits that the verbal agreement was made but he or she changed their mind. In that case, it would go in your favor. |
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Contracts are only as good as your lawyer, verbal agreements are only as good as the character of the one who made them. Save yourself some time and just tell your friend to either forget it or knock the dog crap out of the greedy stud owner.
Sometimes thats all people respect.
Paybacks a bitch!
Sorry, I'm not usually in a violent mood. Its all these damned politics her in Indiana.
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Two Moons I've never seen this side of you. LOL I guess those gas prices have us all a little testy these days; especially if you drive suv's or trucks. In my case that is all we have in my house so I'm thinking about investing in installing my own gas pump in the front yard considering every time I hit the gas I feel like it cost me a buck. |
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Its a little bit of everything Agar. Sometimes your just tired of taking it in the rear, and there are people out there that could use a little tap on the chin. I dunno. |
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Yes, I understand. Been there myself this week and my rear has been feeling quite sore these days. lol |
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neohaus,
Your friend needs to find a real hard ass to deal with this stud owner.
If you were in my area I'd do it for free. I've been there and people like this really burn my butt.
Look for a repo man or a bar room bouncer or a debt collector who would feel sorry for your friend and maybe do it just for fun, I'm not the only one who doesn't like people like this.
LOL.... I gotta quit.
night. |
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Thanks for all you input. I am not sure what exactly is going to be done...but I have told her to run from the whole thing...easier said than done as I am not the one out the money and breeding.
And on the topic...does anyone have a good stud dog contract? I just got a call from a lady who used my dog and told me I owe her money!!!! I am taking a pup instead of stud fee and she says "I am selling them for more than the stud fee so you owe me if you want the pup"!!!! I don't understand people....and I am picking up my pup with empty pockets...lol. |
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Wow, Amy, those are some shady people dealing with you and your friend. Yes, usually a pup is worth more than a stud fee, but the convience of trading a pup is that you owe no money up front, and she should know that. To top it all off, you're a proven show/working home, she should be GRATEFUL that you want a pup from her breeding!
The stud owner is being equally unreasonable. Someone in our area? Your friend should out them so everyone knows to get it writing or be taken by a crook. What a shame for both of you.
BTW, how is my Booger doing? I miss his funny face, even though I don't miss him lifting his leg on my couch!  |
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Booger is fine. His protection and obedience are AMAZING...which I knew already...but tracking is not his thing. Should be home soon!!!
As for the deals...I am taking the pup...at my loss as you stated. Some people all of a sudden thing they have a money maker when they have a litter of pups. This just irritates me to no end!!!
And the stud dog in question is a working line and in FL. I sure hope he can meet my friend half way on this. I think this would be the right thing to do.
Will I see you Saturday? |
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Yes you will! I have 2 pups to show. I'm nervous, haven't shown a dog in a loooooong time- and to top it off, I'm handling both of them myself. Should be interesting, try not to laugh when I wipe out. |
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As a stud owner, first of all I only accept the stud fee when service is rendered - ie at the time the female arrives for the breeding. Sometimes, if I know the person, I get the stud fee when the female is confirmed pregnant or has puppies on the ground. I guarantee at least one live healthy puppy. If there is not one live healthy puppy, then the female owner gets a repeat breeding (and another, and another) until there is one live healthy puppy produced. Another approved female can be substituted for the one that didn't take, or when available, another stud dog can be used for the same fee owed. Because, if I am paid a fee for using my stud - that is paying for USING MY STUD. He breeds the female, and sires at least one live healthy puppy for the fee paid.
The stud dog owner described has scammed the owner of the female. He accepted the stud fee without any service rendered. No breeding took place? So that's like accepting money for a car for sale and then no car is given to the new owner. It's called fraud. I would explain to the stud dog owner what you want - either a breeding to a female that you paid for, or a refund of the entire stud fee. If he refuses, then this is a free country, describe your experiences to the people who may be interested in using this stud dog, or buying puppies from this breeder - make sure people know your experiences with him and that he scammed you out of a stud fee. Use names of the owner and the stud dog. Make sure he knows he should have handled the deal a little differently, with honesty and integrity. The dog world is small - people will not deal with a scam artist if they know what is going on.
That said, hind sight is 20/20 - my stud agreement is also verbal but I will write it down and sign it if requested - one live healthy puppy guaranteed for the stud fee. Ask the stud dog owner what they guarantee for the fee, or find one that doesn't require payment until the female is confirmed pregnant.
molly |
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I wonder if I could make any money hiring out to settle these kinds of desputes the old fashion way...
Paladin, Paladin....LOL |
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Have gun Will Travel.....Two Moons new Motto: Hang out your shingle , Moon...
Number one; you cant take money from someone without producing a goods of some kind....I hope she didnt pay in cash and has no receipt....
Number two: If said female did not get preg the first breeding , was he or she going to give you a repeat breeding.? I would file on him in small claims court...doesnt cost that much for you to represent yourself and let the judge decide if your verbal contract was any good.....He may decide to grant you the breeding as you ask for...I would then go to him or her with a contract on paper and get it in writing....
Take a witness with you to discuss all of the options...never do this alone or without proof with a third party from now on....Nothing gained unless you persue it....Small claims court is different than judicial court and sometime the judges have a different prespective on cases like this.....
Let every one in town know when the case is to be heard and use his name and his dogs name and make sure it is out and public...he may change his attitude then...he owes you a breeding...or he shouldnt have take your money. |
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