German Shepherd dog

How do you like this......from the AKC website:  "AKC rules do not allow, except with special documentation, the registration of a litter out of a dam under 8 months of age or over 12 years of age at time of mating or by a sire under 7 months of age or over 12 years of ages at the time of mating".

Its all kindof a slippery slope.  

By AKC rules a male can be bred at 8mos old. 

The genetic factors do not varry with age; the male will have the same producing potential his whole breeding career.  Obviously, at that age there are many unknown factors as his joints can still change slightly before 2yrs and he is not yet mature enough to properly evaluate all aspects of his tempernment.  At the same time, many of the top American line kennels do start using their own males at this age.  Many of the top German line kennels in the US and various other countries also start using their own males not too long afterwards (although usually after 1yr) to see how the male will produce prior investing lots of money in promotion and titles.  Its not a practice I would say is necessarily unethical, depending on the male and the situation.  The breeder DOES have to be VERY familiar with the bloodline and VERY familiar with how the dogs in that bloodline mature, as a 8month old male still has a lot of maturing/changing to do.  Thats just my oppinion though....

Yeah, she's actually located in my area. Weird to see this on here, but glad someone else notices the backyard breeders.  I tried to befriend her because I love talking dogs to fellow GSD lovers, but had a bad experience and dont agree with her ethics and breeding methods.  Can go in more depth if needed, but I wouldn't reccommend her, and wouldn't even imagine breeding a puppy!!!.  I agree with you GSDFan 100%.  I have a male the same age as the male mentioned.  Won't be using him for breeding until about 2-3 years of age after titles are accomplished and Hip/Elbows OFA certifications and a stamp.  And that's only if he is breed worthy and has something to contribute to the breed.....which I'm crossing my fingers!!  Putting a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears into his training.....but it's worth it. 

It's crazy the AKC allows the breeding of puppies.  And allows to register puppies out of dams up to 12 years?!  OMG.....Who would breed an 11 or 12 year old?  That should be lowered to 6 or 7 in my opinion.  I don't plan to breed any of my dogs past 6 years of age.....

Wow, if she's getting that kinda cash for those litters looks like everyone else advertising puppies from titled parents better ask double for theirs. lol

Yeah, I don't think she sold many at that price.  She ended up keeping the female from her first litter because she couldn't sell her....she was advirtising her A LOT, and told me she didn't want to keep her because she had too much energy.  All of her litters get all the "reduced price" sign and I actually saw it down for $150 for 16 weeks old puppies in the paper at one point, she has or did have A LOT of "pet quality" GSDs that she constantly would breed when having older litters on the ground not being placed.  A member of the Evansville Obedience Club, that the breeder is also a member of, told me of the conditions the dogs lived in, very sad.  And she sold a GSD to a man as a pet for $250 (from parents with no hip certifications....American bloodline mix) and he just wanted her for a pet but she insisted that he not spay her and use her for breeding because she was top quality.  LOL. I know this because he approached me about stud service (which was denied because the female was only 1 year of age and he wasn't willing to OFA certify his dog)  I also asked her why she didn't have her female that has the litter now hips OFA certified since she uses the health guarantee as a big selling ploy and her excuse was that the previous owner did the prelims and she purchased her pregnant.....well then she ended up breeding her very next heat cycle.

I could go  on and on....but I'll refrain.  I'm glad you think she's nice, I unfortunately didn't get that treatment....o'well!  People like this make me sick.  Working at the Veterinary Clinic you see these backyard breeders every day......very aggravating.

I agree about the local "market" being flooded with the GSD ads there for awhile and it was right when I had my litter....I was a little concerned because yes the $250 GSDs go very quickly!  But all of my pups were spoken for by 5 weeks of age thank goodness....all 10 of them. 

OOpps....  

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.   Or something about throwing rocks when you live in a glass house.

Anyway this is all common place here on the database.

I do have one comment to make and its this.    The GSD of today and what we are doing with them has nothing to do with what the old captain had in mind.   Spout his name all you like (anyone) but I'm sure he would not be pleased.

JMO.

I just dont think its a good idea to be breeding a dog when you havent a clue of what their health is like and 7 months is way to young to really know what the health is like.  Epilepsy frequently doesnt show up until 2 years of age - hips at 7 months - not even close to being done - same for elbows.  How do you know what you are producing is healthy if you breed them that young?  You cant even do most of the OFA certs (thyroid, Patellar, Cardiac) until 12 months - at the least.

And not only that - for the people that work their dogs and require working titles - the dogs can't be titled at that age.  You dont know for sure what kind of adult temperment they are going to have or for females - how they might change after their first heat (which I am under the impression they frequently do).

And then lets go into structure - a dog at that age isnt fully developed - and frequently isnt going to have a conf. title under any org.  And the dog isnt fully developed.  Hec - at 7 months they probably dont even have their full height on them yet!

When I think of people charging that much for a puppy - I usually think of the health certifications and copious working certifications - and depending on what I am looking at I am also thinking of show titles that come with the parents that are hopefully good indicators of the puppies.  Buying puppies is a crapshoot - it's an even greater crap shoot if the parents are neither health tested, titled, or even finished growing (and there are many, many 2yolds in the Shepherd breeds that arent even done or will be done until 3 or 4 years).  How can you know what you are producing without actually knowing what the parents are yet?

Before I really learned about choosing dogs it might not have bothered me as much - but now I know better - and while the above are not always good indicators of the dogs themselves...they frequently are.

~Cate

Oh but hey - the faster you breem'em the more money you can make, right?  And why bother doing what legitimate breeders do (title, breed survey) when you can charge unsuspecting newbies the exact same amount of money without doing any of the work???   Perfect world my ass.

This is ridiculous!  First of all none of you know her.  And as far as the person at top who started with the bashing is only doing it because she's at a competition.  She's jealous. Period.  This breeder we are speaking of is well organized.  She takes all the proper steps in maintaining a credible business.  I went the first time to get a dog for my dad and I couldn't believe what I saw.  The kennels were so clean, and the dogs were so well taken care of.  I was amazed!  Everything she says and does holds true and she always follows AKC rules and regulations.  Matter fact I was so impressed I went back for another dog at a later time.  And yes these pups were more expensive but that is because she has begun changing her breeding to a BETTER BREED.  Full German bloodlines from Germany.  She's trying to make her business better just like anyone would do.  And as far as the respect she hold's for her customers, well everything I wrote should speak for itself.  Give it a rest!

CTGSDS4ME,

Welcome to the board and join in more often.   Takes time to get the flow of it figured out.

No such thing as a perfect world thats for sure.   But some of these people here really do work hard at being the best they can be and putting many hours of love and hard work into what they do.  There is a difference here that is obvious.

I'm not going to bash this lady because she's not alone, lots of people would like to get into dog breeding and it takes them time to learn how.   

As with anything its very competitive and she must learn quickly as I think she is right now.  

Good luck to you both.

Moons.

I'm really looking forward to reading  the answers to Cates questions, they are after all, good questions.  Will I be surprised when the breeder ignores or rationalizes - not at all.

GSDfan143,

You opened this topic and yet where are you now?   Watching?   Getting off?    Looking for more fodder for the board to chew on?

We're better than this.

SSDD

I think the fact that GSDfan143 created his/her profile name for the first time yesterday and hasn't returned says it all. 

On the positive side, I have been a member of this message board for a couple of months.  There is alot of good information posted here and it has helped me alot reading others "opinions".  I read all the posts and form my own opinion on what is good for my two babies. 

After loosing my beloved  8 year (young) female Shepherd "Serena" last year due to bloat and a stomach that twisted which we went through the surgery for but she never recovered from,  I am very grateful to have two new GSD's to love.  I wouldn't have any other breed.

Have a nice day everyone. 

Laura Savage

my message got cut off....

said some nasty comments.  She wanted to charge more money.  That's fine...it's her dogs, she asked for my opinion and I gave it.  I had a puppy from a litter at the same time that had an umbilical hernia but it was caused from trauma at birth and I have that documented.  I paid to have the hernia repaired before he went to his new home, and she was completely informed of everything.  He was sold w/full registration because it was 100% from trauma and NOT congenital.  If she didn't like my opinion that's fine, but there was no reason to react the way she did, and of course I got aggravated and expressed my feelings on her not OFA hip/elbow certifying her dogs.  I'm sure others may have different opinions, and I was going from what I was taught in college, tested over and lectured to from veterinarians. 

This is my last message to this post.  I have other things to do...it's a GORGEOUS day to be outside working the dogs.  I wish she would answer the poster's questions and also Ceph's...it would be great information for us all, maybe there's something new we don't know?  I would be curous as to why anyone would breed a male puppy?  Or not take the steps to OFA certify their breeding stock?  It's not Kristi only.........other "breeders" do this too.....why???  Is it money?  Wanting just to have puppies because they are fun???  I wouldn't think it's to better the breed or any other particular goal, but that's just perspective. 

I wish AKC would regulate the breeding of dogs the way the SV does.  Things would be SO much better. Does anyone see this happening??  Probably not? 

The bottom line is:

The breeder will choose to do what they feel is right, and no one else's personal oppinion should matter to them on what they do in their own breeding program.  Each breeder sets their own price, and places their puppies in homes for whatever amount they choose.  There is no need for heated discussion.  Sperm is sperm and will produce the same puppies at 8mos or 2yrs, titled or untitled.  A VA/SchH3/KKL1/"a" male will produce the same quality in his puppies at 7mos as he will at 5yrs.  An untitled male with no certifications, who could make VA/SchH3/KKL1/"a" will also produce the same quality in his puppies.  No need to attack the breeder; if you don't like it...buy a puppy elsewhere. 

In my experiance , a sound and stable 8month old youngster is most likely not going to turn into a nerve bag later, nor is a youngster with correct structure/movement going to turn into a total mess.  If the dog is sound, the dog will stay sound unless the owner/trainer messes something up. Its something that is entirely up to the breeder.  If a breeding comes together a little earlier than planned, and they feel comfortable making that breeding happen, then it is what it is. 

The woman may very well take good care of her dogs and puppies but the part I'm having trouble getting past to even ASK all the other related questions already pointed out above that went unanswered is that she is breeding a dog that isn't even a year old.  Ouch! 

Gefauhr............LOL ouch......some do =) 

The reality is that the pet trade doesn't have the same goals as most people here and there is little that can change this no matter what some would like.

Two Moons-

You are so correct. I really doubt we'll ever see this change either. I remember chastizing a byb about hips and health issues alone.

You would have thought I insulted this persons mother by the way they took what I said about breeding their dogs.

They have no clue, just breed for the money.