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How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??

    
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How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.?? (21 replies)

How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by k9sar06 on 28 April 2008 - 19:04


k9sar06

Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:29 pm

My question is how do you know what % your dog is of East or West or Czech or whatever?

I see advertisements with 90% East/DDR & 10% Czech....Is there a list somewhere of what the major bred dogs are??


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Two Moons on 28 April 2008 - 20:04


Two Moons

Posts: 1907
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm

The percentage's included in the ad make it sound bogus to me.   I went thru this with hybrid wolve's  80% this and 20% that.  I dont really know how they figure this but it was total BS as far as I was concerned.   Even after it was explained to me it made little sense.   It would be easier just to study the pedigree for yourself.

DDR should be just that, and Czech came partly from those lines as I understand it.  East or west of what, the old iron curtain?  

Again it just sounds like an advertising ploy to me.   Go to the pedigree.

JMO


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 20:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

Well, it's based off of overall genetic percentages. Consider one puppy/dog:
Each parent contributes 50% of the genetic make-up of that puppy/dog-easily understandable.
Each grandparent contributes  25% genetics of the puppy/dog-again, simple break-down.
Each great-grandparent 12.5% of the puppy/dog-just half of 25% from the previous grandparent generation...
Each great-great grandparent contributes 6.25%,
Each great-great-great grandparent contributes 3.125%, and so forth.
Just remember, adding up the percentages properly has to equal 100% for the puppy/dog for it to be even potentially right.{2 parents(2x50%=100%), 4 grandparents(4x25%=100%), 8 great-grandparents(8x12.5%=100%), 16 great-great grandparents(16x6.25%=100%) and so forth
}
And now obviously- a great-great grandparent isn't going to be as influential on a puppy genetically as a grandparent. We have done established that a great-great grandparent only contributes 6.25% genetics for a pup whereas a grandparent contributes 25%. Its obvious who contributes more.
So, if a dog advertized has one Czech bloodline grandparent and the rest are WGR working lines grandparents, then that dog would be said to be 75%(3 out of 4)  WGR working lines and 25% Czech(because  only 1 out of 4 grandparents was Czech). 

If the combination of bloodlines was more complicated(meaning, other different bloodlines used), then you would look at it the exact same way and assign each ancestor a percentage value  based on where it is at in the pedigree and you can use color-coding for simplification (assign green for WGR show, blue for WGR working, red for Czech, orange for DDR to make it EASY for yourself to follow)-and the end figure HAS to equal up to 100% or else it's not done right.  And yes, it does include having a nice knowledge of what bloodline is what-without that information your knowledge is going to be limited. And, genetics aren't exactly cut and dried perfect, either-this is just giving a basic understanding of what percentages mean what-some dogs tend to be stronger in their genetics for certain things than othersand 2ndary genetic effects can happen and so forth, so it either may or may not come out. That's why some pups come out MARKED LIKE or ACT like a grandparent, not either parent, per say. It's why I always say, "breeding animals is not and never will be a perfected science."  :o) Hope that helps.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Two Moons on 28 April 2008 - 20:04


Two Moons

Posts: 1907
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm

That sounds familiar, so how do you get a 90% -10% ?   you see my point?


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Bob McKown on 28 April 2008 - 20:04
Bob McKown

Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 03:15 pm

 

 How is there accent?


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 20:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

As far as knowing particular bloodlines from others, knowing the kennel name assigned to the dog generally will route you in what  direction the breeding is from. These bloodlines are similar, but then again, some are bit stronger driven and minded than others (meaning, it takes a more experienced person to handle a higher drive strong-minded DDR dog than it does an easier going WGR working lines dog). That's true for any bloodlines, and there's harder WGR working dogs and calmer DDR dogs out there-same for Czech dogs. You can't eyeball it and figure whether a working dog is WGR working, DDR(East German) or Czech. If you're not up on the pedigrees to recognize the bloodlines, find someone decent and reputable who DOES know.
WGR Working: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/268.html
DDR(East German): http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/364679.html They sometimes have DDR as part of their registration #.

Czech: Not sure personally on a full Czech dog but I'm sure plenty of people on here would; their registration # usually has CKSP in it.
These are mere examples. I'm a WGR SHOW line person, so I'm not fully 'up' on working bloodlines & pedigrees. There are some awesome working dogs out there, and there's some awesome show line dogs out there-I love to watch them ALL!


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 21:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

Like this: (by the way, I'm not 100% sure you could get as close as a 90/10 unless you average percentages). This is an example only. I'm using names I know, but not pedigrees, per say. I'm trying to keep this simple, yet complicate it so you can SEE how it works. The dog in percentage question is JADA-what is her percentage break-down on understanding her bloodlines? We wanna figure out, by the pedigree I'm giving her, what percentage of what she is. Ok.
 

                                                                G G-Sire: Tim (100% Czech) 
                                    G-Sire: Titus (Czech/Working)
                                                                G-G Dam: Mindi (100% WGR working)
             Sire: Kohle (Czech/WGR.working/DDR combo)
                                                                 G-G-Sire: Tino(100% DDR)
                                     G-Dam:  Meika (WGR working/DDR combo)
                                                                  G-G-Dam: Kora (100% WGR working)

Jada(?)

                                                    G G-Sire: Marko (100% WGR show)
                                   G-Sire: Panjo (WGR SHOW/DDR)
                                                    G-G-Dam:


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 21:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

oh no. It ate my example. Now I've gotta redo it.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 21:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

I'll restart with Jada's mom's side...
                                          G G-Sire: Marko(100% WGR show)
                               G-Sire: Panjo(WGR Show/DDR)
                                          G-G-Dam: Jetta (100% DDR)
        Dam: Meika (WGR Show/DDR/Czech combo)
                                            G-G-Sire: Ronne (100% Czech)
                              G-Dam: Quina (Czech/WGR working)
                                            G-G-Dam:  Hera (WGR working)

This is a typical 4-gen pedigree. We need to work from the furthest ancestor information we have in order to accurately figure out what Jada's bloodline percentages are. Great-grandparents contribute 12.5% of a dog's percentage.
So, 3 great-grandparents are WGR working(Mindi, Kora & Hera), so 12.5%x3=37.5% of Jada is WGR working lines.
2 great grandparents(Tino & Jetta) are DDR, so 12.5%x2=25% of Jada is DDR.
2 great grandparents(Tim & Ronne) are Czech, so 12.5%x2=25% of Jada is Czech
and 1 great-grandparent(Marko) is WGR show, so 12.5%x1=12.5% of Jada is WGR show.
Based from this information, we could accurately advertise that Jada is 37.5%WGR Working/25%DDR/25%Czech/12.5%WGRShow lines.
Or to put it in more general terms, Jada is 87.5% working and 12.5% show lines.
If one wanted to make these averages a little simpler to understand, one could say Jada is 90% working/10% show lines and STILL be pretty accurate overall in the information provided. Hope that helps.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by k9sar06 on 28 April 2008 - 22:04


k9sar06

Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:29 pm

Okay-so on past the %'s

What major kennel names are East/DDR - West - Czech??

Like Grafental is East/DDR...


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Ramage on 28 April 2008 - 22:04


Ramage

Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 03:30 pm

Hmmm, took me a few hours, but spent the time and finally came out to a round about percentage of 80% West and 20% East for my male. I had to go way back into the generations, but it is easy so long as you do it as already mentioned. Just takes time.

My female is considered full Czech, however, she has DDR back in the older generations because Czech lines were created using DDR lines. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Ramage on 28 April 2008 - 22:04


Ramage

Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 03:30 pm

Forgot to mention, Jinopo and z Pohranicni Straze are goo Czech lines.

I could mention a few DDR and East lines that are nice, but I'm sure someone else on here coul give you a better idea. I'm not great with bloodlines, but trying to get better and researching a lot.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by DDR_SDG on 28 April 2008 - 22:04
DDR_SDG

Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 07:36 pm

DDR(East German): http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/364679.htmlFlori vom Kameruner Eck is not full ddr, Gebrüder Grimm has west german lines



How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 28 April 2008 - 23:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

Great job, Ramage-I'm glad you can put this info to work for you and thus have you better educated about your own dog.
I HAVE noticed quite a few Czech dogs aren't FULL Czech-some have DDR lines like mentioned. Maybe not much, but have 'em. Also some have Slovakian lines, too.
WGR Working kennels....there's LOTS of them to recognize in pedigrees. Zeuterner Himmelreich, Braunsweiger Wappen, Trogenbach, Kleinen Pfahl, Hohen Erle, Withracker SchloB, Waldwinkel, Karthago, Itztal, Haus Dexel, Neffeltal, Lahntal,-the list is extensive, just like for WGR show lines. And some of these kennels may have SOME dogs who cross into DDR/Czech due to breeding into such lines.

DDR: Grafental, Schaferleisel, Rolandsteich, Haus Himpel, Marderpfahl, zwie Steinen, Rundeck, and I'm sure plenty more.  They may not be spelled exactly right-sorry. I've found its a general rule of thumb-if the name says "vom Haus...." then it's more often a working kennel rather than show. That's not 100%, but decently reliable.

Czech(also bleeds into DDR and Slovakian dogs): Policia, z Pohranicni Straze, Na-Vla, Pec-Kar, so forth.

Show/Working Combo-Kirschental usually does show, but does sometimes also do interesting show/working combos.

Working line experts would have to give you a FAR better list than what I can provide. But, this should help you. Do you have a particular pedigree you could list for us to take a look at and see?


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by DDR_SDG on 28 April 2008 - 23:04
DDR_SDG

Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 07:36 pm

katjo74   DDR: Grafental, Schaferleisel, Rolandsteich, Haus Himpel, Marderpfahl, zwie Steinen, Rundeck.

Grafental is the only one left and they breed more west show then east german dogs 


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by k9sar06 on 28 April 2008 - 23:04


k9sar06

Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:29 pm

Interested in my working line GSD's.

Male: Faust                                                    Female: Tia

And then a combined pedigree from both for a puppy.

Also my "A" litter puppies....

Mostly I wanted to know how to tell the difference between the East & West working lines. I like Karthago lines and the Grafental, Policia & PS lines. I want to find a nice pedigreed female for my male and a nice pedigreed male for my female and sometimes I get lost in the pedigree and trying to "see" what is and isn't a good match. I know pedigree isn't EVERYTHING but it does play an important role in giving you a good start in the right direction.

 

 


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 29 April 2008 - 00:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

Really, SDG? I was told they (Grafental) were popular for DDR lines. I know a stud  named Treu who's full brother is a Grafental  Stud Dog(or he at least WAS one of theirs)-True's sire's side is Grafental dogs. They may have moved him on by now.
K9SAR-I'll look at your links here in a minute.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 29 April 2008 - 00:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

Ok. I've looked at your pedigrees. Thank you for posting the links!
Ok. Tia goes back in her 7th generation to VA2 Canto Wienerau/VA1 Marko Cellerland- West German SHOW lines(via Gert vom Lowenhain). Doesn't that just throw a pleasant TURN in things? lol. And she also has VA Benny vom Heideloh in her pedigree via Ester vom Wildbachtal. Look at Benny's pic-beautiful blk/red from 1980-he's in one of my own GSDs. He's got show line, too. The rest looks pretty DDRish. :o)
Did you know MNJK  in Tia's pedigree is Hungarian? Just wondering if you knew.
On to Faust: Yeah, he's pretty much Czech/DDR, but he DOES have a dog that goes back to VA1 Canto von der Wienerau(WGR show) also-check back thru VA Zasko vom Monchberg. Nice looking black male, btw.

If you look at their 7 generation pedigree links, you'll see the dogs I'm talking about.
It's more working line from what I see; I wouldn't be overly worried about the percentage of show line-it's going to be extremely low for these 2, even lower for their progeny.



How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Gustav on 29 April 2008 - 01:04
Gustav

Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am

Marko vom Cellerland is the foundation of  some of the strongest West workinglines.(Like the Maineche lines), I would certainly not classify him as a showline dog in the sense of Canto/Quanto. Name me some current showlines that use Marko as a foundation???


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 29 April 2008 - 01:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

No, I wasn't saying he's current WGR show lines like Canto/Quanto/Mutz, but he's in there in some show pedigrees, just far far back. Kirschental breeding in particular-not all progeny are listed here on this database. Ira vom Kirschental, Orla vom Kirschental to name a couple. But NO, they're not CURRENT.  But it is what it is. I wasn't categorying anyone in particular. Marko was very impressive to say the least, and yes, I definitely know about him being in alot of very nice working pedigrees-but influencial nonetheless. Like I've said from the start in this-I'm not a workng line person. Whether you classify Marko as show or working, VA2 Canto is found in both pedigrees being talked about, which means they have show lines.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by Gustav on 29 April 2008 - 10:04
Gustav

Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am

Canto was never VA as a dog, because of his mother Zilly. It appeared that when you mentioned Marko it was in the context of a showdog as you identified Canto/Quanto. The only similarity between Marko and Canto is that they were both shown in the showring. I understand your intent.....just don't like seeing Marko associated with showlines as people know them today.


How do you know East from West from Czech, ect.??
by katjo74 on 30 April 2008 - 02:04


katjo74

Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 09:33 pm

That was never my intent. It is what it is.  I think I've done far more explaining good than bad here. lol.
I'm a personal fan of Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich, although I'm not a big fan of sable nor working lines. But, an impressive dog is an impressive dog, period. :o) Ultimately, tho, it's hard not to like something about all of 'em. Sorry for the title error on Canto-I've been posting after a looooong day and hardly any sleep doing this, so do forgive. Yes, Canto is V1, not VA2.











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